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 "dark" Ceremonial Magick
Velarius
post Jul 7 2008, 03:06 PM
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I am currently practicing traditional ceremonial magick, such as the

LBRP
MIddle Pillar
Circle of Light

etc......

However, i am noticing that several practitioners of the Left Hand Path who use simialir rituals but often inversed or reversed. Is the effect supposed to be the same and merely calling upon different forces of energy ... or are they designed for a different or even opposite purpose?


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In the end we belong to both the light and the darkness ... and in some ways ... to neither

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Velarius
post Jul 9 2008, 02:46 PM
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I just wanted to note that i already found the answer myself after doing some research and checking some sources.

The difference for anyone who wanted to know is in the emphasis.

The traditional Golden Dawn style LBRP is about sprirt being trancendent over matter, whereas a LHP LBRP is about spirit decending into matter, though they have the same result in mind.

*bows*

Light and Darkness,

Velarius the White


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In the end we belong to both the light and the darkness ... and in some ways ... to neither

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bym
post Jul 17 2008, 11:57 AM
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That is not entirely true. Reversal of energy doesn't necessarily land you in the same place. Alot of 'LHP' magic is labeled that because some of it utilizes sex in its workings. People mistakenly think that LHP is one that raises materialism above spiritualism. You could argue that practising Goetic Magic as being LHP as it consorts with demons. The definitions of RHP and LHP is a fuzzy one, oftimes refered to in the third person as being diametrically opposed to the path you are on. You need to research the differences abit more. One can practice the ritual QC, penta/hexagram rituals and still be LHP. It's never as cut and dried as some propose. Good luck!


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SonOfAbraham
post Aug 1 2008, 06:59 PM
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you don't need 'inversal's are anything of that sort. What matters at the end is invoking the feels and emotions that can best simulate your perception of what you consider 'dark' or evil.
Alot of the times doing something as simple as just completely turning of the lights, and putting on some music that you consider 'evil' or 'dark' can help invoke those feelings.
Once again, its all about perception and getting those emotions invoked of what you perceive to be what you are trying to invoke.

and like bym said, LHP is often mislabeled as putting materialism over spiritualism, which is false. Its all about the perception, heck, you can invoke angelic entities while performing sex acts. Once again, its ALL about what YOU perceive.

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Neshamah
post Aug 7 2008, 07:31 PM
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I disagree that "it's all about perceptions." In my humble opion, it's not perception that makes a ritual or an act part of the LHP, it is intent.

Once again, this is very difficult to describe and lay out for those who need an A, B, C, outline. Acts or rituals aren't one thing or another in and of themselves (just as an object isn't "morally" good or evil). It is the intent of acts or rituals that make them RHP and LHP, just as it is intent (as to use) of an object that makes it evil or good.

Before you begin any kind of working (whether it is the LBRP, the QC, or the GRH) you must decide your intent for the working. Are you working for your own enlightenment and the greater good of all humanity? Then your action is very likely RHP. If, on the other hand, your working is for self-deification then your action is most likely LHP. But, again, things are not always that simple either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif)

Light, Life, and Love.

For a Peace Profound,

Neshamah


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bym
post Aug 7 2008, 10:46 PM
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Greetings!
Purely to stir the pot...perception and intent can both trip you up. Imagine that I wish to carry out an operation that will bring incredible relief to those suffering around me. The people and crops are suffering from severe drought. I perform a series of ritual that call up rain clouds to soothe the parched earth and people. The rains come! And come, and come and soon there is flooding which brings death and pestilence to the land. My intent was good. My perception was that of positive outcome. We need to work with nature and the flow of the 'universe'...which may not bring immediate cessation of our problems. It can be very confusing. This last illustration is, in fact, moot because it was contrived/slanted to manipulate others into following my idea of how things should be. It's a deadly waltz, perception and intent. I suppose if you limit your sphere of intent to your own reality you will find it easier to objectify your position. Again, in the third person our perceptions can give us some rather biased results.

How's that for Gordian Knot logic? Where's the beer? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif)


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http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=7662

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Trimorphia
post Aug 8 2008, 09:41 PM
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bym - thankyou for your post, it is nice to see such comments (I am new to this site). Perhaps this should posted in a different forum – but intent is a funny thing as you rightly point out! Where is intent coming from? Ah...... if that is truly clear, then no problem. Even if perception is lacking! Funny old game...

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Lucifer
post Aug 25 2008, 09:56 AM
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"Light and Darkness"

Verily, and Amen.


This was one of those questions that took me a while to likewise figure out.

I was coming, and today still primarily coming from: a very Thelemic stand-point when this question was introduced to my work.

I invoked Set with much seccess to find that it was indeed a reversal about the Horusian formula (so popularized in Thelemic workings)

Where HORUS would go From Within to Without

SET will go from Without to Within


Averse or Averted, Light and Dark, Man and Woman, Active and Passive... call it what you will. But whatever path you dedicate yourself to: the Within Without or the Without Within; give yourself wholly to.

in any regard: if you work with Light, you will see, experience, encounter Darkness.

when you work with Darkness, you'll see Light.


Solve and Coagulate: see, hear, feel, be Balance


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xXDaemonReignXx
post Oct 5 2009, 08:40 PM
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I have the same problem in that. I wanna continue the LBRP HRP and middle piller but I dont like using the hebrew God names.
also I want something that feels darker. because i know for my self that it is much more powerfull and is more natural to magick. imao magick belongs in the dark not the light.
Ive tried some Michael Ford but sometimes it is to fantasy and I want something less egosentric more like traditional witchraft than satanism. Im not a Christian thus Im not a Satanist. any suggestions?


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Imperial Arts
post Oct 6 2009, 07:49 PM
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It seems like you want the rituals, but not the names, correct?

Think about what place those names have in the rituals. Some people believe they are invoking spirits and divine powers. Others believe the names exist only to provide a focus for concentration.

If you agree with the former perspective, it looks like you want the same ritual but want to apply it towards other gods and spirits. Isn't this backwards? One ought to want to invoke a particular spirit, and seek the method of doing so, not the other way around. This is my opinion.

If you agree with the latter perspective, why bother with the ritual format at all? This seems lacking in creativity, or at least over-complicated.

If you do want something that avoids strict religious overtones and still captures a psychological impact, I suggest The Ritual of the Middle Finger. Instead of using the Middle Pillar, replace your god-names with obscenities! You can intone S--- for the base chakra, then F---, then Damn! For the heart chakra, how about Jesus H. Christ! (the H is for Heart) Obviously, opening the throat charka requires B---S--- and only one whose brow chakra has become illuminated with the Dumbass mantra can proceed to the crown charka, wherein is invoked the ineffable G--Dammit!

In all frankness I think you would be better off making a drastic alteration to suit your personal tastes (as Crowley did), doing something altogether different, or performing the rituals in their ordinary and unaltered way. I've seen how the esoteric Mad-Libs tend to work out in the long-run. People who have been "doing" magic for years come to realize that they never actually did anything. Instead of sacred rituals or even disciplined concentration exercises, they got ritualized monologues with arbitrary content.

No matter what you choose, my personal opinion is that I respect those who actually put effort into their magic. The guy who does the pentagram ritual every day, whether he believes in those spirits or not, earns my respect ten times over compared to the guy with super-cool rituals he hardly ever performs.


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xXDaemonReignXx
post Oct 6 2009, 08:06 PM
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Hi Imperial arts. I am a big fan. I am gonna download some of you books from lullu soon.

I was thinking. since these types of systems are based on kabbala what if you change the names based on the left hand path kabbalah. what is the name of the fallen kabbala? I wanna look into it somemore. it is like a reversal of it so it will be perfect to exchange kabbala god names.

I know like in the LBRP you can reverse the name instead of arch angels you can use the fallen angels.

It makes sense if you believe that the YHVH is the evil and that the dark God is the try light of the world than it makes alot of sense
you wanna be protected by demonic gardians rather than the imposters of the Christian god right?

you would not say the God names of the imposter nazaren God in your sacred ceremony to honour the Divine darkness right?

Just putting this system together takes work and study. Does anyone have this. im kind of lacking in the hard work section (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)


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bym
post Oct 7 2009, 05:01 AM
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Greetings!
I think that you have a slightly skewed vision of what 'kabbalah' means and what you are trying to accomplish. Perhaps I am wrong...
The use of the qlippothic forms still leave you with dealing with the positive side of the Tree! You can't recognize only the negative and not acknowledge the other half of the duality that enlivens your view of the negative. Without light there is no dark. To willingly embrace the qlippoth is something that I do not understand. These are the uncontrolled/spillover forces of the Tree. Everything that you find there you will find on the Tree (...just that the forces will not be chaotic and are less dangerous). On a reflective note I've observed that a lot of people end by throwing in with the demonic even qlippothic side of things because the powers involved are more responsive to their own chaotic nature. This is merely the opinionated ramblings of an old man. Quite a few people (esp. males) will enter into the study of the occult to gain power and to exercise there dominance upon all/any of the world that they can. The World is a vast place and today our grasp of sanity and comfort are smaller comodities. The darker aspects of occultism are always easier to deal with...until the price is extracted. And it will be extracted, mostly in ways that you don't think of at the time.

So...don't use the hebrew god names, hell...don't use the rituals! Make your own. Use of these rituals have a number of results within the practioner. They impose discipline, a certain acknowledgement of energy work, and they hone the connections with the universe to yourself (and vice versa). These rituals were developed by various hermetic and judeo-christian orders over the years. Before them were other ritual that exist sans the christian influence. I've observed that the powers that be usually respond well to those with creativity and drive as these people are those that form strong conduits of energy to manifest for whatever reason...

Ultimately it is up to you on how you wish to interact with your view of the world. How you go about it will definately colour the picture you see. Be it Michael or Samael that you include in your work. Easy isn't always best....even though it can feel pretty satisfying. You are the one the will have to live with the result(s). I'd prefer a strong foundation, even a cave over a structure that has paper walls. My choice. Remember also that there were and are strong foundations pre-christ/Jehovah. You just have to discover the methods and means for developing your own foundations.

I hope this ramble has given you something more (or less) to think about! I hope that the choices you make will suit you and bring you happiness and prosperity! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)


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Rest in Peace Bym.
http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=7662

~The Sacred Magick Management

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xXDaemonReignXx
post Oct 7 2009, 06:02 AM
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thank you nym for you reply.
I am actually just starting my study of the Kabbalah. I find it very interesting. there is so much I dont know about this but I have always found it awkward when it comes to the author reference things in the old testement Bible and when they refer to Jesus.

I have kind of taken the satanic lucifer figure as a God figure. Just something ancient and powerfull. it feels right for me I feel power from the darker side rather than the light, Pan was known to tear men in half and have quite a strong sexual appetite but the ancients still worshiped him.
but I am a balanced person I understand in the balance. the kabbalah explains this to me. the first act of creation was a seperation from positive and negetive. everything in the universe is made in this way it says. truly fascinating and inspirational (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

maybe the qlippothic is just a mirror reflection of the positive aspect of creation. maybe I was wrong in thinking that the ancient Hebrew religions were similar to Chrisitians because they must expect that God must have a positive aswell as negitive aspect.
So they have divided light from dark and have they said that the evil archetype is divine aswell?

I dont really want to embrace the qlippoth rather than understand it.
I practice the occult but im not a murderer or something. just that when I know I have great ability for evil in me I know how much positive things I can do. and I know that what comes around goes around so I sow my seeds for succsess not destruction.
Im perfectly sane I assure you and If I wasnt I would practice the left hand path for sure.

Hebrew religion believe in the old testement. the old testement is what says you should not suffer a witch to live. is that the reason for the inquisition? Its a shame everything in ceremonial magick is based on Hebrew than. i practiced GD for a long time but it just dosent feel right for me anymore. im saying the words but my heart is not in the right place. I lost faith so to speak

I guess I did enter the Occult to gain power to be honest. I want to feel powerfull I want supernatural power. I want to be empowered. atleast in satanism this is okay. infact they say that Lucifer wants us to develop our own inner power.

Anyway I tottaly agree with you about having good foundations. that is why I am continuing my studdy of kabbalah But the GD rituals are really meaningfull to me and I love Vibrating the God names but I feel I cant Do it because I would be worshiping the God of the Old testement and the Bible.

I have much respect for the many world religions but this is my personal practice and my art so it should be personal right.
just that once you stray form the norm it gets messed up and abit messy like mixing voodoo and goetia. I need a solod beliefe system to work with I cant change from one to the other. I want to believve In One religion instead of going between religions to do different things than they are always in conflict.

you said "Remember also that there were and are strong foundations pre-christ/Jehovah" and I am in total agreement but this means that I wont have all the God names and things to read out of a book in alphabetical order so it will be harder to create a working system with older religions.

But the most important thing I guess is what imperial arts said it dosent matter what system you use but that you put effort into it.
I have been doing the GD rituals for several years now not everyday but on and of I think its time to develop my own art now that I have the basics and I want to take my art to a level of mastery that I will feel satisfied.

I have out ranted you hahahah oh well it is on topic so who cares (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

This post has been edited by xXDaemonReignXx: Oct 7 2009, 06:46 AM


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Hybrid Theory
post Nov 2 2009, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE(bym @ Jul 17 2008, 12:57 PM) *

One can practice the ritual QC, penta/hexagram rituals and still be LHP. It's never as cut and dried as some propose. Good luck!


Actually Bym, I disagree with you here. That's like saying a ceremonial magickian can revert the rituals of the pentragrams and hexagrams and replace the archangels with demons and still be on God's side. That would be like betraying God.
Also, Satanists are known to be very prideful people; most of them would actually die for their beliefs. So it is illogical to think that a Satanist would pratice those rituals you stated but yet would still consider himself a Satanist. He just wouldn't do that cuz he he has too much pride and adores Satan too much. Even if he did do it, it would actually take away from his life and idealogies as a Satanist and NOT add onto them ( some would think this, given how your experimenting). This is wrong.

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Kath
post Nov 2 2009, 04:02 PM
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actually most satanists would not die for their beliefs, at least not LaVeyian satanists, since in his satanic bible he comments on ideological martyrdom as 'the ultimate sin' and a 'betrayal of self'.
also, many satanists are nontheistic, and so do not 'adore satan' per say.
which isn't to say that you're wrong about pride, satanists are very prideful yes.

I think this thread stumbles over the meaning of LHP a bit. it is a vague term, and different posters are interpreting it differently. For some LHP/RHP is about good/evil, for others its about morality/amorality, for others it's about chaos/order, for others it's about inwardfocus/outwardfocus, for others personalpower/submissiontohigherpower, and for still others LHP is understood as originally being the vedic enlightenment path of tantra. None of these are entirely correct or incorrect, but simply different ideas which people have about what the term LHP means. Sort of a semantics issue. I think this is greatly confusing the discussion.

My own view of the modern occult meaning of LHP vs. RHP very closely matches wikipedia's input.
QUOTE
Right-Hand Path belief systems generally share the following properties:

* Belief in a higher power, such as a deity.
* Obedience to the will of a higher power.
* The belief that there is an absolute definition of good and evil that applies to everyone.
* Esoteric belief in a supernatural mechanism like Karma, divine retribution, or the Threefold Law, which entails the assessment of moral decisions made in one's lifetime.
* Eschatological beliefs, resulting to salvation for some and to damnation for others.

Left-Hand Path belief systems generally share the following properties:

* The conviction that individuals can become (or already are) akin to gods.
* The conviction that there is no such thing as a selfless act. Fulfilling one's desire is acknowledged to be selfish, at the least reaping an individual sense of satisfaction. Altruism is considered self-deception, created and fostered by conventional religions.
* A less rigid definition of the self; a purported realization that there are sometimes collective identities which can also, just as validly, have the label "self" applied to them.
* An exoteric interpretation of concepts like karma, divine retribution, or the Threefold Law, resulting in flexible rather than rigid codes of ethics.
* The conviction that the individual is preeminent, and that all decisions should be made with the goal of cultivating the self (though not necessarily the ego).
* The conviction that each individual is responsible for his or her own happiness, and that no external force will provide salvation or reward actions which do not advance one's own happiness in this life.
* The conviction that the forces of the universe can be harnessed to one's personal will by magical means, and that power gained and wielded in such a manner is an aid to enlightenment, to self-satisfaction, and to self-deification.
* A Platonic view of deities as "first-forms." If deity is perceived as having consciousness, then all relationships with the deity are in the form of a partnership, or an alliance which does not require subservience. Some practitioners of Left-Hand Path belief systems summarize this concept with the statement that "prideful deities like prideful partners."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LHP

But of course, LHP comes originally from tantra. Granted semitic cultures have long held beliefs about the left hand, as it is the 'dirty' hand you wipe your backside with, and in the absence of bathroom faucets, it probably is 'dirty' and not the same hand you'd eat with or shake hands with. But as a 'path' it comes from tantra, where LHP is meant to describe a divergence from a normal vedic RHP ceremonial procession. Vamachara, an early version of tantra, literally means "left hand path" and is the origin of that phrase. Tantra can on the surface seem like hedonism, and so it is easy to confuse it with amorality from a western perspective, but this is a gross misunderstanding of tantra. Tantra is a recognized 'enlightenment' path which simply uses different psychology in it's approach, towards the same basic goal as RHP veda. (although tantrik paths do vary, then again so do yogik paths). Anyway, victorian european travelers mistook it for hedonism, and it became ever-associated with amorality in the west, eventually capitalized upon by folks such as LaVey, and to a lesser degree Crowley, etc.


Anyway, the question of whether you can mix&match qliphothic & kabbalistic magic is largely a matter of perspective. If you view the universe as a place divided into good & evil and headed by YHVH... then any dipping into the 'dark evil stuff' would seem much like a betrayal of god. If you view all of this as just ancient hebrew archetypal ideology, then it's not hard to blend them at all. If you view it from an eastern 'balance' focused perspective, you might even feel compelled to blend them. So in addition to confusion over exactly what we mean by LHP and RHP, there is the issue of the ideological & religious background of the practicioner, which will change things drastically, depending on their beliefs.

In the end, I'd go with Crowley's advice on this one "Do what thou wilt"


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bym
post Nov 2 2009, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE
Greetings!
Thanks Kath for that segue...
Hybrid Theory, who was speaking of Satanists? Oh....you mean LHP! Two distinctly different ideas, both vegetables but there it ends...
Technically, all Satanists are, by inference, Christians,Jews or Muslim! (That should stir the pot!)
Why couldn't a Satanist use the QC or the Penta/hexagram rituals? Most of the folderol that is spewed by LaVey (and others) are merely Christian/Jewish rituals with the Gods names removed and demonic names replaced! And THAT isn't even remotely correct when considering Satanism.
Also...for those of you who think that dealing with Qlippothic energies is NOT a form of Kabbalah then guess again!
Who do you think theorized all of this dualistic miasma?
I reiterate my stand and Thanks for shopping at WalMart!
(sorry...that just snuck out...) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif)


Greetings!
This is an editted version of my original response. I'm sometimes considered 'arrogant' when faced with various rebuttals and this is not what I wish to confer!
Why can't a Satanist use the QC or either the pentagram/hexagram rituals?
Especially in todays Newage communities...where, it appears, that Chaos Magic is all the rage.
Please make no mistake here... The LHP is not related to Satanism other than inference by one of the opposing political parties.
I am not fond of dualisms, feeling that they are too limiting and cast things in a terrible 'light'.
You may be correct in your assesment of Satanists though, since I do not believe in that hierarchy, cannot claim to know much about them...other than what has been foisted off on the general public about them.(From either side)
No, the use of the QC and the pentagram/hexagram ritual are lessons in energy manipulation. The pentagram ritual invoking or banishing the elemental forces and the hexagram ritual dealing with the planetary forces. Fairly neutral. You could, of course, use various god names/powers whilst using them but these needn't be Xtian (or whatever). The Aurum Solis are fond of using ancient Greek names and some have even tried to hermetically associate the Egyptian Neteru to their use.
The QC (Quabbalistic Cross) uses the energy flow of the universe to activate and/or modulate the energy flows of our spirtual bodies. Again neutral until you add various god names/powers to them.
This brings me to a possible hitch in the thinking about such rituals in the aspiring mage. Here you are already convinced that LHP means Satanism and then these rituals are associated, due to whatever book you were reading, to forces that are antithetical to Satanism. I think that with further reflection you may see otherwise, experience being a possible issue. If that sounded arrogant, I do apologize.
Note: I've left the original statement in for comedic purposes.


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http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=7662

~The Sacred Magick Management

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Hybrid Theory
post Nov 27 2009, 10:50 PM
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Hey Bym. You weren't being arrogant at all; personally, I enjoy your posts and I believe you raised some pretty decent points. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

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