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Sacred Magick Forums _ Chaos Magick _ Chaos

Posted by: bym Jul 13 2005, 04:30 PM

I promised this thread on another discussion thread and now...I have to deliver.
Just what makes Chaos Magic(k) chaotic?
We are beings with the ability to perceive many things but is Chaos one of them?
How, as organized life forms, are we able to conceptualize Chaos and then produce a 'system' of magic that utilizes this principle? (the idea of a 'system' implies order by its very nature)
A close friend and I are in the middle of this debate...he's a Molecular Biophysisist and I'm a dropout. He claims evidence of chaos exists in many ways and I've asked him to illustrate this. So far I've not heard of anything objective. True, we can say 'chaos' and write 'chaos' but we are doing so with the tools of order.
Let me bow out for awhile and let the over heated air cool and invite ideas from the Forum. Remember, this is a debate/discussion and we should agree to disagree rather than slinging shots! OK? huh.gif

Posted by: Alarum Jul 13 2005, 06:36 PM

Ok, I disagree with you completely, and I'll reply constructivley. Chaos Magic isnt a system, its a framework that uses all other magical paradigms, real or fictional and allows the magician to paradigm shift from one to the other, as chaotically as the individual chooses.

Chaos itself saturates.... well... all of reality, have you ever read anything about Chaos Magic Theory? Chaotic systems influence everything in our universe, most notably the weather, but it also applies to everything, even the human mind. Your very personality is the result of many chaotic occurences, biological, psychological, etc, non of which could have been planned. Open your eyes man! The universe isnt ordered or constructed, its a total mess! There is the illusion of order in our everyday lives, but even traffic jams, train journies, office work etc etc blaa blaa are totally chaotic. If the world wasnt chaotic then it would be perfect, and it sure as hell isnt!

CM is called CM because its foundation is based on Chaos Theory, and all Chaotes are advised to have at least basic knowledge of this as it describes ways that the universe works and how to apply this to magic.

Yes, we do percieve chaos, its all around you cant you see it?! We are most defintely NOT organised life forms, seriously! Ever heard of something called crime? Entropy and random occurences happen ever quadtrillionth of a millisecond; the very reason our universe came into existance was a chaotic act. Atoms act chaotically, have you heard of the Heisenberg principle in Quantum machanics? Quantum Darwinism fits into this too, run a search on these principles.

Posted by: bym Jul 13 2005, 06:50 PM

laugh.gif

you make some interesting points. By your observation then Science is based on Chaos. (remember, please, that I'm playing Devils Advocate...my eyes ARE wide open!*grin*) Since the Big Bang we have enjoyed Order, in part. This goes against Fundamentalist teachings which proclaim God made the heavens and the world and then populated it with various forms of life and being. How is it that a rock is a rock and not just whatever you wish it to be? Where does Order come in? Or is it all just Chaos in various continually morphimg 'forms'? Note: Semantics play a heavy role in societies perception so I don't think that we should set it aside...but we can if you're willing.
BTW, thank you for responding. smile.gif

Posted by: Alarum Jul 13 2005, 07:04 PM

QUOTE(bym @ Jul 13 2005, 07:50 PM)
How is it that a rock is a rock and not just whatever you wish it to be? Where does Order come in? Or is it all just Chaos in various continually morphimg 'forms'?

You didnt run searches and learn about what I advised would enlighten you did you?

Well.... fine, I've ran the searches myself. READ!

http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041220/pf/041220-12_pf.html

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/122/feb9/hup.html
The last line in this article should read, "This notion has interesting consequences for nuclear fusion in stars, (here's where I butt in) AND in the practice and perception of magical acts such as enchantment, evocation and sigil magic.

Also look up Superposition, Entanglement, Entropy, M Theory, String Theory and Chaos Theory itself as they all have direct applications and relavence when one wishes to learn about how Chaotic our universe is.

"Since the Big Bang we have enjoyed Order, in part."

I would say that we have enjoyed Chaos totally since the Big Bang, or whatever it was that caused all the background radiation (M Theory goes into this in great depth.), there was no chaos before the BB because there were no physical systems for chaos to manifest within. The BB was the first act of chaos.

Posted by: bym Jul 14 2005, 06:20 AM

"Our work shows that the environment is not just finding out the state of the system and keeping it to itself", he adds. "Rather, it is advertising it throughout the environment, so that many observers can find it out simultaneously and independently."

This, as stated by your first web site is conclusion enough that order exists. (I will touch on this further)


"A consequence of the Qunatum Mechanical nature of the world, is that particles can appear in places where they have no right to be (from an ordinary, common sense [classical] point of view)! "

This does not necessarily reflect Chaos. Just because particles react differently to our scientists ways of thinking doesn't mean Chaos. (side note: scientific papers with mis-spellings become less plausible due to lack of quality control. Just an observation from years of reading these papers...)

First let me preface any further discussion by stating that this thread should be talked about in a cool way. Casting emotive barbs will not further discussion rather it will let things dissolve into bad feelings and the end of rationality.
I did read the blurbs and this condescension is not conducive to progress. Nor am I particularily stupid or dense.

I am conversant with all your suggested syllabus. The very ideas put forth are spawned from a scientific bent which by its nature deals with Order. Atomic 'structure' is Order. Genetic codes are Order. Crystals are Order. Ritual is Order. Language is Order.
BTW the two websites contradict one another. Ah....Dis-Order!

Order is Structure and Form. Chaos is Formless. Just because we cannot measure some things doesn't mean that they are Chaotic. Not to say that they are strictly of Order either.

"The last line in this article should read, "This notion has interesting consequences for nuclear fusion in stars, (here's where I butt in) AND in the practice and perception of magical acts such as enchantment, evocation and sigil magic. "

This is your slant, though I'm not sure exactly what you are saying...
Are we perceiving Chaos or the Idea of Chaos? Theory is not Fact, something that the scientific community waffles on when it suits their personal points of view.
Actually I'm of the camp that views the BB as the imposition of Order on Chaos.

Semantics play are part here. We can say that something acts Chaotic when it doesn't fall within expected patterns of existance/observation. This doesn't necessarily mean that it is Chaos. It just isn't acting the way we think it should....from our Ordered Universe. Again, I ask as I originally did, can we perceive Chaos? Not just things acting 'chaotically' but actual Chaos.

I think that in Magic we deal with Chaos and Order but we tend to think about them in a different way. MY spin is that Conciousness allows us to take and shape Chaos into usable 'form' or Order. We inhabit very Ordered shapes but when we step outside these shapes we are able to deal with Chaos and Order in a more intimate fashion. Even Astral substance has some Order to it, though not nearly as much as the physical world.* Life appears to be Chaotic but isn't very...just a large collection of ordered things acting in many, diverse ordered ways. Change principles suggest the introduction of Chaos though still in an ordered fashion (ie a butterfly doesn't change into a snake after chryssalis...maybe a different mutative butterfly form but not something else entirely) Again, hierarchal structure = Order!
* The plasticity of Astral substance is a good example of Chaos manifesting through the Ordered Universe. By strong visualization and force of will/emotion we are able to 'crystallize' form and structure to the Astral substance. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Alarum Jul 14 2005, 10:13 AM

There is order in our small little lives, bopping about from a to b, waking up in the same bed everyday in the same place etc. But the amount of order in the universe compared with disorder/entropy and chaos is 1 to a billion billion trillion whatever’s. Evolution is a chaotic system, the Butterfly Effect, fractals, the movement of particles through our 11 dimensions. I can't illustrate further, only to say that chaos is manifest in every physical system to some extent. Order is simply a illusion that we have grown accustomed to in our happy little controlled western lives. Eris is everywhere, in everything.

Humans have invented the idea of order, just as they have invented the ideas of Good and Evil. These things are not real, there are just differing amounts of chaos. The very matter we are comprised of acts chaotically on the micro level, but appears ordered on the macro. The table looks like and always has looked like, a table. But according to string theory and QM, one day it could change into a chicken. There is a chance it could happen, and so, given enough time, it WILL happen. You would think that this is totally out of the question, but if their is a chance, even if its 1 in (insert something very big with several billion zeros on the end), then it will still happen. You list lots of things that 'appear' on the macro to have order, but think about the way it works on the quantum level.

Saying I can directly 'perceive' chaos is like saying I can directly 'perceive' my house without using any of my senses or my imagination, its impossible. However, I don’t see how this adds anything to the theory of Order.

Again, if the universe was an ordered structure then it would be perfect. There would be no accidents, now coincidence, nothing would be lacking or incomplete. The Quabbalah explains this by saying that the original universe was created by the God to be totally perfect, but as it was perfect it collapsed and destroyed itself. This is where the Qlippoth comes from, the shells left over from the last creation, and also that when an Adept reaches Kether consciousness and crossed the abyss (ie, attaining perfection) s/he must take a fall and return once more to the world of action, and also, if the origami martial artists (I forget their name) create a piece of origami that is considered completely perfect, they are expected to move one piece of it or even damage a tiny part of it for fear that it will destroy the universe.

Chaos does not have to be something physical to be perceived, its an abstract concept designed to describe the breakdown/ erratic behaviour of physical systems. The word 'order' is exactly the same.

"Just because we cannot measure some things doesn't mean that they are Chaotic."

Well what else would you say this random atomic behaviour is; do you think that its still order but just too ordered for us to understand?

Posted by: A_Smoking_Fox Jul 14 2005, 03:03 PM

the order you can perceive is only one of two things.
1. an illusion.
2. created by humanity.

On a large scale you have the solar system, which appears to be in order.
But this is not true, the time frame is shifted from normal human appearance. If you look at a time frame that is more suited to the grandeur of a solar system. You can see that in a slice of about the life of our sun. Our solar system is just a small outburst in the chaos, extremely unstable. The sun literally destroys itself. Calling our solar system is like calling the element fire stable, is a flame really that stable? once its combustion fluid is burned away it is gone. (i know the sun is a nuclear fusion process, but the result is the same...)

In nature there is no order. Life just seems to come into existence when the right properties are there. Note evolution, evolution is skipping the order. If there was perfect order then evolution would not happen.
perhaps you say it is part of adaptability. But in fact evolution creates such diversity that it is absurd. No two flies are exactly the same, no two living organisms are exactly the same. Imagine the infinite number of differences. Then imagine that every organism, that once existed in the million years of this earth, are the same. No two trees are the same.
Then imagine that there may have been, or is life on more planets.
And, with the life forms on this planets, each life form that is capable of thinking has his own unique thoughts, and no two thought forms are the same, you cannot think something exactly the same as you did before.
That does not seem like something neatly ordered to me, the diversity is mind blowing.

Then see how no two stones are the same, no two ripples of water are exactly the same. And there are many planets, even in this solar system that have rocks and fluids and wind.
This diversity is absurd, and chaotic.

gravity may seem like a form of order, but it is not.
Gravity is just a result, it is different from location to location, from planet to planet.

Just name something that appears as order, and if it is not made by man, i will explain how its order is an illusion.

Posted by: bym Jul 14 2005, 04:32 PM

Excellent points! I'm not sure that I can or want to refute some of these illustrations.
The discussion was about our ability to perceive Chaos. I had hypothesized that as creatures of Order, was it possible for us to perceive Chaos? (or merely order acting chaotically) There has been many good arguments brought forth to illustrate that:
1. Order is illusion
2. the universe is Chaotic
...and a whole lot of flailing in the dark about Quantum Mechanics, entropy and occult hoo-haw.

Philosophically, Order and Chaos are a dualistic 'paradigm'. In order to state that Order is an illusion is to either declare the same for Chaos or to allude to this as not a duality at all, leaving that Chaos is All. Interesting. (How 'bout a Trinity?)
That the universe is chaotic, IMHO, is partially true. I still adhere to the idea that Chaos is Formless. In truth, I am of the belief that Order does exist and it swims in Chaos, utilizing it to further its own existance.
I am in direct disagreement with the Tree of Life/Qliphoth analogy used. The Qliphoth are the 'leftovers'/imbalances of the Sephira which are various 'forms' of Order.
Evolution Theory is not Evolution Fact, as is Chaos Theory is not Chaos Fact.
Abstracts are perceptions outside of established Order. Could one not say that Chaos as an Abstract is merely Theory and therefore not based in tangible Fact?
It gets very complex.
Our Forum subscribes to many, diverse forms of 'hidden' knowledge (ie occult) which can be separated into two basic camps, Chaos and Order. The theological groups tend toward Order...hierarchies are a manifestation of Order and the psionicists tend toward Chaos. Emotion fuels the lot in some ways (after all humans have emotions) Not to leave the theologic Psionicists alone mayhap we have a Neutrality as a Third?
Perfection also has nothing to do with it. As a chaote I would find that Chaos is perfect. Perfection is an attribute imposed on the human condition, it is an Abstract. I can hear the theologicians grumble. But GOD is perfect! Says who?
All of the above has been mulled around in human brains. Our perceptions are not limited by Order nor as formless as Chaos. During this discussion where was the old maxim: As Above, So Below ? Without form we could not not have probabilities. Without CHaos we would not have change. Chaos requires Order.
More later as I'm starting to ramble and need to cogitate. You guys keep one alive, Thanks!

Posted by: Alarum Jul 14 2005, 07:01 PM

QUOTE(bym @ Jul 14 2005, 05:32 PM)
Perfection also has nothing to do with it.

I was saying that when something actually IS order, it collapses in on itself as real order can not exist, and if it did it would threaten the universe.

Those theologians can suck my ass, no God is perfect. I believe that nothing is perfect, not even the divine; in fact, as I believe that divine entities etc are just manifested archetypes of the deep subconscious, I believe that they are even more imperfect than us as human beings! But that is for another discussion.

I think this whole thread belongs in a philosophy board... it doesnt really have much to do with CMT. But nontheless, its a damn good discussion. pimp_.gif

Posted by: bym Jul 14 2005, 07:24 PM

I, alas, disagree...but I'm sure that this will continue for years... rolleyes.gif
I've just talked with my scientist friend and, after setting me straight about physics and thermodynamics, I feel dumber and even more convinced at the Order of the Universe. Yeah, this was/is heavy into philosophy but what the hey? I'm glad you were able to stand up and talk about it! Most people run screaming from a debate. I apologize for the 'disordered' way I argued my case...it was puerile and not well thought out. Maybe next time I can articulate better on the subject(s)...ciaou smile.gif

Posted by: A_Smoking_Fox Jul 15 2005, 01:24 AM

very interesting...

as for perfection. Nothing is perfect, and everything is perfect.
The abstract of perfection is so vague. If i bake some steak, and its baked to the exact point i like it, still a little red. Then i say that the stake is cooked to perfection. But a steak with some red in it may be disgusting to you?

terms like perfection, beauty, intelligence, .. are all abstracts created by human intelligence. It is a way we measure something that really cannot be measured. And it is largely Dependant upon the human mind, and sometimes it differs from mind to mind.

As for chaos. I think order emerges from chaos. At the basic level all order we have is not constant. All order we observe is hinging like a scale, waiting for a gentle push to fall one way or another.
I believe there are gods, or powerful entities that have the ability to shape the chaos. Perhaps it is they that shape the order into this world.

But who can really know, these things are so abstract that it makes discussion hard. And personally i have my doubts about chaos and order.

I think the tao, the force, is the same as 'the chaos'. Some underlying chaotic ether, that is the basis for this world, energy in an uncondensed and uncontrolled way..

Now, what do i think at this moment.
I don't really care, in the end it is not important what or who or how chaos is. These are illusionary problems. It can provide an interesting question but i don't think it is really necessary to know the truth of such far fetched theorys. Meditation, daily rituals, sharpening the mind, overcoming demons(= fears, doubts, wrong thought patterns).
Those are things that interest me much more, and this conversation has certainly sharpened my mind.

Posted by: Rin Daemoko Jul 15 2005, 04:32 PM

Do to the very nature of chaos, I can't say very much on the topic. I will say this, however:

CODE
- chaos happens -

Posted by: bym Jul 15 2005, 06:07 PM

horse.gif

Posted by: green_pheonix Jul 15 2005, 09:37 PM

QUOTE(bym @ Jul 15 2005, 04:07 PM)
horse.gif

very insightfull.. damn.. couldnt have put it better myself!! wub.gif

so now I guess you're going to make me read this
whole god damn thread arent you bym?

fruckin bloody slimy rat sucking demon kissing cod swallop

..too damn many good threads to read...

wizard.gif

Posted by: Bb3 Jul 22 2005, 09:14 PM

I think that one can definitely learn to perceive the most important aspect of chaos and that aspect is chance. Though I don't think most perceive chance with their eyes, they perceive it through other senses, not that it's impossible to see. The quote 'for the beginners mind there are many choices, for the expert there are few' seems to fit in well with this topic. If you can perceive chance then I think you must be able to perceive chaos but I'm not sure if it's part of human nature to do such a thing.

Posted by: Praxis Aug 11 2005, 10:37 AM

To me:

Chaos is the order that I do not comprehend.
Order is the chaos that I comprehend.

The key that differentiates chaos and order is my comprehension.

As I comprehend chaos, then chaos becomes order.
As I do not comprehend order, then order becomes chaos.


**********


When I use the word chaos for qualifying the word magick, chaos references the process for engaging the order that I do not comprehend - with the magickal goal being volitionally to cause the change of specifically shifting from not comprehending to comprehending. i.e. transforming chaos into order.

I apply the order resulting from that transformation for refining how I engage my experiences.

To anyone who doesn't comprehend how I do what I do, my magickal process is chaotic. They often consider my magickal process to be chaotic because my magickal process occurs according to my personal paradigm, which differs compared to whatever paradigm they use for their magickal work.

To anyone who comprehends how I do what I do, my magickal process is ordered - albeit ordered from within the context of my paradigm.

Based upon that: showing someone chaos simply results from either explaining, or demonstrating, a magickal working that they do not comprehend.

Posted by: bym Aug 11 2005, 12:02 PM

Thank you. I find that you have said that rather well.
I'm beginning to believe that 'awareness/conciousness' is the underlying glue, so to speak...IMHO! rolleyes.gif

Posted by: gavriel Sep 3 2005, 04:19 PM

This is a question that has no answer. However consider this. We as humans have Finite mental capacities. We can neither concieve nor comprehend anything that is infinite. Chaos is infinite, therefore while we may be able to tap into this force, we are tapping into something it is imposible for us to comprehend. Consider also what happens when the human body is plunged into Chaos, it can not exist, it will be torn apart in a maelstorm of seething entropy. Lets face it, we are creatures of balance. We need both order and chaos to exist. Too much order would make us as you say "perfect", stagnant unchanging, never able to grow or become. Magick could not exist without both order and chaos. Magick performed is directed by ordered focused will, without that it would just be throwing energy into the void and playing the astronomical odds hoping out of infinite targets it hits what you want it too.
On a tangent, BYM, you have a great mind and i have soooo much respect for you, thanks for having the courage to show true wisdom where others might just seem threatened and insecure in their beliefs. thankyou.gif

Posted by: al_zaine Jul 21 2007, 07:26 PM

One way of looking at it.....


IPB Image

Posted by: Nill Jul 24 2007, 06:25 PM

Order and disorder are two sides to the same illusion. Granted one breeds the other, but that first must be crafted.

Posted by: al_zaine Jul 24 2007, 07:54 PM

I agree that order and disorder are both illusion.
With the example I gave you, you can see it in basic form, the chaos is simply messy lines whereas the order is lines drawn with direction, in a sense, or co-ordinance, but at the end of the day its only my perception.
I like to envision choas compared to order as something like a mosh pit compared to line-dancing or the directionless rioters compared to the co-ordinated police force. In some amazingly odd way, its as though order is percieved as chaotic to those of choas and vice versa, not so much breeding eachother but....being each other, because beyond this dual illusion of order/chaos is the same source which I can only percieve as that transparencey which is whithin all and is all.
Peace,
Al.

Posted by: Acid09 Jul 26 2007, 06:40 PM

QUOTE(al_zaine @ Jul 21 2007, 07:26 PM) *
One way of looking at it.....
IPB Image


And yet even with all the contorted lines and randomization there is a deeply complex pattern adherant to some mathematical principle. Pure chaos and pure order cannot exist. Your sigil may represent chaos but it still carries order. If it was pure chaos you wouldn't see the partials of geometric figures. And for every twisted line, there is a straight one as well.

Posted by: al_zaine Aug 1 2007, 12:27 PM

So would you say that formlessness is the true chaos.
My god is transparent and formless and exists within all, without all and is ALL.
To me it is both order and chaos, both light and dark, all the dualities, all of existence, ALL OF IT.
I'm now finding it harder to grasp what chaos is. We put individual letters together in and orderly fashion to make words for communication and if those words were broken down, communication 'in that form' would become chaotic, wouldn't it?
Al

Posted by: Acid09 Aug 2 2007, 05:55 PM

In my opinion pure chaos and pure order cannot exist or at least we cannot concieve of them in this realm as we perceive it. We can represent it through symbols we can try to understand it through philosophy but we are beings created through a balance in both chaos and order. We have evolved in a universe so fast and yet seems to conform to a balancing act between chaos and order. As such we cannot currently know what pure chaos or order really are. Pure chaos is absolute destruction, as in anti-matter upon matter. Pure order is absolute and unchanging control. If the universe could not have been made by a force of pure order because pure order never changes. The universe would never have evolved at all. If the force that created it was pure chaos it would have simply self destructed and desolved back into nothingness. Only in the nothingness of space beyond our universe, beyond dark matter or dark energy, only in the void beyond all comprehension can pure chaos and order exist, imho.

Posted by: leolad Aug 7 2007, 07:25 PM

you are trying to describe something that is washed in the wordless. the harder you try to grasp it the quicker it will slip through your fingers. all you can do is perceive it how you see fit and with no time line for which possibilities to fall to zero then i guess anything is possible. perceiving something new or different is the magick! a rock is a product of chaos. your face is also a product of chaos. also your shoe and even the computer your typing on is a product of chaos. the thought of the word chaos is a product of chaos. antimatter is a part of chaos. i could go on forever and ever. thats my take on it or so i ponder

Posted by: Acid09 Aug 8 2007, 04:28 PM

QUOTE
you are trying to describe something that is washed in the wordless. the harder you try to grasp it the quicker it will slip through your fingers. all you can do is perceive it how you see fit and with no time line for which possibilities to fall to zero then i guess anything is possible. perceiving something new or different is the magick! a rock is a product of chaos. your face is also a product of chaos. also your shoe and even the computer your typing on is a product of chaos. the thought of the word chaos is a product of chaos. antimatter is a part of chaos. i could go on forever and ever. thats my take on it or so i ponder

I'd argue the things you mentioned that are products of chaos are also products of order. Order x chaos = our reality. Chaos is the change and evolution of existance and order is the laws of physics - thats not to say that even these laws cannot change or that we even know all of them.

Posted by: paxx Sep 20 2007, 12:10 PM

Going back to the original question… “what makes chaos magic chaotic?”

Taking out any dogma…kind of the antithesis of chaos, Chaos magic is taking in anything and using it to conform to your will at that point in time. The basis of doing that…if done correctly is chaotic. The results are not as chaotic as one would think, or they are more chaotic then one would think in the order and simplicity it sometimes ends up being.

The science of complex systems is just now coming online in mainstream science. Newtonian and Quantum mechanics have both been disproven on fundamental levels, yet they are mainstays in the physicists toolbox because they work most of the time. They are currently the best tools available.

I would hate for people to think that lack of understanding equals proof of anything, all lack of understanding does is create chaos in your current reality.

Where chaos magic shines is in it’s current lack of fear to explore and experiment. “To challenge everything, or challenge nothing.”

To create a circle of power with shaving cream toped with cinnamon and use the sound, smell, and experience of the cinnamon crystals compressing the shaving foam to obtain a state for your spell work.

In essence where as most magickal traditions quest for order in their work space, the chaos “tradition” does not really care and almost hopes for randomness.

My only problem with the system is that it is easy to go more extreme to obtain sensory overload, as subtlety is more difficult to use unpredictably after a time.

I believe Chaos Magick is much more shamanic then the current mass of people who use it would believe, most come into it with ceremonial concepts or other structured system. Shamans use what is available to them…in our current world/urban environment there is a lot available. Chaos magic fits there very well.

That is my opinion at the moment anyway.

Posted by: Makavelli Dec 15 2007, 10:03 PM

Chaos is every bit a part of the natural universe as order. Chaos is the energy behind everything. All order comes from chaos, and to chaos shall it all return. The Chaoist is one who understands the workings of chaos behind the scenes and attempts to weild these energies/concepts to create. IMO, the mastery of chaos magick is the ultimate god skill, as it gives the magickan the power to create order from raw energy.

Need examples of chaos in natural systems? Watch the television show "House." That show is a prime example of just how frail the orderly systems of natural living things are.

Typical thinking is to say that chaos is simply an unwelcome occurance in a universe that naturally orderly. Chaoists, however, believe that chaos is the natural state of things, and that order is the anamoley (sp?).

Chaoists use chaos to create order, and destroy order to release chaotic energy. Chaotic energy is a magickan's clay. From it we can shape, form, destroy and form again. It's how we play with the universe.

Posted by: balancedmagi Jan 19 2008, 07:51 PM

hi... blush2.gif ... just a question. does it really matter. im not trying to say anything everyone has really good ideas... but. well, what does it matter. its here you know. i doubt it really contimplates itself. i think chaos is chaos and law is law. the yin doesnt worry about the yang and vice versa... but dont take my words for anything. i just think were all right and wrong. thats all.... um bye

Posted by: queen of the south Feb 15 2008, 04:05 PM

Well,loads of good ideas.Did any of you ever hear the saying that without a backdrop of order,chaos wouldn't exist?

Posted by: eternal ginja Sep 18 2008, 04:52 AM

QUOTE
hi... ... just a question. does it really matter. im not trying to say anything everyone has really good ideas... but. well, what does it matter. its here you know. i doubt it really contimplates itself. i think chaos is chaos and law is law. the yin doesnt worry about the yang and vice versa... but dont take my words for anything. i just think were all right and wrong. thats all.... um bye


WOW! i forgot about writing that lol i was so young and nieve lol um

okay i didnt read it all cuz im not a reading nut but what i read you all have good points. so, acid i think that the complete chaos cannot exist nor the complete order as you but only because we will always see the duality in them as al_zaine said. in the chocolate you eat can it not also have a little vanilla. the dog can have the essence of a cat in it. the woman might think like a man on certain occasions, everything imposes on itself.

as for perfection... a phrase and nothing more. perfection is nothing more than trying to fit the universe and all its concepts and notions we will never fathom if we lived for 10,000 gigaannums. the complexities is because we refuse to see the simplicity. the sky is blue because its blue the dog wags its tail because its happy. there is no complete biologics behind it. but we explore deeper always cuz we must know more. thus we delve into many THEORIES and ideas that shape our universe into something that it is and is not. we create our own universe as gods that we look up to. we give names to things that have no life and are shapeless. because we seek we create. because we assume we find. perfection is ever changing and thus does not have a definition.

neither does mankind, nor human, nor you or me or anything. nothing exists because for it to exist in our thoughts it must be defined in a way that we can depend on, the only thing that remains a constant in life as we all know is nothing remains and everything changes.

so really if we think on these standards there is order in this chaotic span of life that has reached back past what we fathom. the universe started... we know... or maybe it was always we think. the question will make us search forever and when we die off the next intelligent life forms will do likewise wondering where their origins span. we ask futile ? in search for answers that we don't need. thus we spend our lives not living as we should be doing but instead seeking the answer to life and its secrets never thinking... do we really need to know them. better ? if there are Gods out there or cognisant beings of the universe would they find us worthy of imposing upon the knowledge they protect for our own purposes when all we are capable of is destruction? everything that brings life and hope in this world is always converted to death at some point down the line. EVERYTHING!

freedom of speech= MLK, JFK, MALCOM X, JESUS CHRIST, GHANDI, TUPAC
birth= abortion, day after pill, etc.
etc.

there is a passage in the bible i dont know where that says:

"be grateful for what you are given and the kingdom of god will be given to you"

by those standards humans are a greedy self serving species no better than cockroaches, the only difference being we havent survived half as long as the little bastards. by that analogy we wouldn't be given nothing but the death we have plagued this world with. but enough of my tired rant...


in conclusion to round everything up... chaos is nothing more than an illusion, a concept, a pretty box with a bow of the intangible that we are always trying to control like a wild bronco that hasn't been tamed yet. and order is it's opposite since there "must always be an equal and positive and negative reaction" in order for anything to work in the universe. so says the humans so it becomes and the humans rise to the gods.
book.gif evil2.gif

Posted by: Traceless Jan 19 2010, 04:54 AM

QUOTE(bym @ Jul 13 2005, 03:30 PM) *

I promised this thread on another discussion thread and now...I have to deliver.
Just what makes Chaos Magic(k) chaotic?
We are beings with the ability to perceive many things but is Chaos one of them?
How, as organized life forms, are we able to conceptualize Chaos and then produce a 'system' of magic that utilizes this principle? (the idea of a 'system' implies order by its very nature)
A close friend and I are in the middle of this debate...he's a Molecular Biophysisist and I'm a dropout. He claims evidence of chaos exists in many ways and I've asked him to illustrate this. So far I've not heard of anything objective. True, we can say 'chaos' and write 'chaos' but we are doing so with the tools of order.
Let me bow out for awhile and let the over heated air cool and invite ideas from the Forum. Remember, this is a debate/discussion and we should agree to disagree rather than slinging shots! OK? huh.gif


We say chaos because it is not a system in the traditional sense but rather an amalgam of parts from many different systems picked up or set aside by the magician as needed. As Peter Carrol says it is "metaparadigmal", a system beyond systematization, a system without rules, as in seeming chaotic but with a hidden underlying symmetry. Chaos is a system not of imposed order but of naturally emerging symmetry.

Posted by: bym Jan 19 2010, 06:56 AM

QUOTE
As Peter Carrol says it is "metaparadigmal", a system beyond systematization, a system without rules, as in seeming chaotic but with a hidden underlying symmetry. Chaos is a system not of imposed order but of naturally emerging symmetry.


My point exactly! Symmetry is the organization of something to form a pattern. We can reside on the very infintesemal 'edge' of Chaos but never cross lest we be overwhelmed by its be-ness. ANY cognitive thought begins the inception of Order. The very use of language to describe Chaos is still using Order...similar to defining negative space... From our vantage point you could say that if we enlarge the soup it can resemble chaos (again, in theory) but that is an illusion. But, I forget, All is illusion...
Another interesting avenue. What say you(all)?

Posted by: SororZSD23 Jan 19 2010, 09:25 AM


. . . the beginning, middle, and end; the birth, growth, and perfection of all that we
see come from contraries, through contraries, into contraries, to contraries. And where there is contrariety, there is action and reaction, motion, diversity, number, order degrees, succession, and vicissitudes.


Giordano Bruno, Lo Spacio della Bestia Trionfante—which got him burned at the stake:
blowup.gif

Posted by: Traceless Jan 19 2010, 11:25 AM

QUOTE(bym @ Jan 19 2010, 05:56 AM) *

My point exactly! Symmetry is the organization of something to form a pattern. We can reside on the very infintesemal 'edge' of Chaos but never cross lest we be overwhelmed by its be-ness. ANY cognitive thought begins the inception of Order. The very use of language to describe Chaos is still using Order...similar to defining negative space... From our vantage point you could say that if we enlarge the soup it can resemble chaos (again, in theory) but that is an illusion. But, I forget, All is illusion...
Another interesting avenue. What say you(all)?


Yes but order still remains emergent from chaos, from the chaos of electrical activity in the brain emerges every cognitive organized thought. The symmetry of chaos is self organizing not acted upon by any outside force but blossoming from within being manifest of its own nature. Indeed we cannot cross fully into chaos but residing at the edge we constantly stand witness to the emergent principle that all arises from chaos.

Posted by: bym Jan 19 2010, 02:27 PM

Ah...perhaps semantics is the problem...we agree on so much but still maintain our different perspectives...
Yes, of course Order comes from Chaos! But we can only perceive Order AS it is 'precipitated' from Chaos. To say that 'symmetry' exists as a function or state inherent in Chaos is to deny the Chaos. We, as products of Chaos, are beings of Order. Even Mind has Order. We use language to help us conceptualize Chaos but that is merely illusion . IMHO! I must admit that my logic and understanding may be considered flawed or even too rigid in this discussion...I doubt that this will change in the near future unless an epiphany strikes me...(ouch!) I'll climb back into my cave for the nonce and see if you can lure another soul into this...besides, I talk entirely too much! *grin* i_triangle.gif

Posted by: Vagrant Dreamer Jan 21 2010, 10:42 PM

Mmm... I am of the mind, after some meditation on the subject of Chaos and Chaos Magick to two momentary plateaus of cognizance.

The first is that, no matter how chaotic you imagine any aspect of reality to be - whether that's the apparently random development of an individual life form, the apparently chaotic electrical activity of the brain, or the apparently chaotic evolution of life and contained self-awareness - in fact everything that is, was caused by something. Effect is preceded by cause, which is in turn an effect preceded by a cause. It is the Yin and Yang. Multiple causes may produce one effect and one cause may produce multiple effects and in a rudimentary sense this can sometimes appear to be chaos - but cause and effect is the essential basis for order, and it is the most basic principle upon which we organize all 'laws' which define the shape of that order in any given era.

If Chaos is antithetical to order, then Chaos must be Acausal. I don't think I can really even say anything to elucidate that. Needless to say, a human being can't even have an acausal thought. You might think so - but if, for instance, you try and prove it is so by 'randomly' thinking about different, say, fruits; the cause of that effect was the instigation present in that original statement that it could not be done (and furthermore your unconscious mind supplies those concepts upon your demand for them based on a thousand sub-conscious processes which are the cumulative total of your experiences, recent mental activity, current fixations, etc.). Nothing you do is random, nothing you are is random. That isn't to say that it is pre-ordained, but that one cause elicited an effect, which caused another, and so on, and the point at which we label 'chaotic' is really nothing more than the isolated instance in a string of causes and effects.

As to Chaos in Chaos Magic(k)... first of all I haven't real peter carrol, and I've read Spare, well, sparingly... although I have read a few spin-offs and essays based upon, and so forth. But regardless the fact of the matter is, the magician may choose paradigms at 'random' and attempt to act 'chaotically' - but in the end (or, really, the beginning!) those choices are the result of psychological activity and impulses derived from a string of cause/effect chain reactions that are not really chaotic at all. A member here said very eloquently (forgive the lack of assigning due credit) "Order is the Chaos I comprehend, and Chaos is the Order I do not Comprehend".

Making a circle of power from shaving cream and cinnamon, for instance - You're still using a circle of power, still applying basic universal principles of ritual magic. A sigil is basically a talisman, substituting one 'charging' ritual for another, and one method of construction for another (method = systematic). Firing the sigil into the apparent 'chaos' of the subconscious mind is not doing that at all - the subconscious mind is not chaotic, just a more complex system than the portion of our 'waking' consciousness that we are immediately aware of, and one that we aren't cognizant of directly.

THe movement of bodies in space may seem chaotic, but really it's a series of gravity wells, torsion fields, (theoretically) dark matter masses, and celestial 'winds' that cumulated in this gracefully systematic dance of galaxies, black holes, stars, planets, and everything in between them.

If anything, then, can be called chaos, it may be the very first Cause, that which had no precedent. IN genesis doesn't it say something about God creating everything out of chaos and void or something? I forget the hebrew wording exactly, but kabbalistically the letters imply this. Chaos might have preceded everything, and everything might one day break down totally into chaos - but in terms of our 'reality' and our ability to percieve or utilize in any way, I must say that I personally cannot reason or anti-reason that chaos is present either to human perception in general, or that it is present in Chaos Magic.

What we can do, I think, is relegate these concepts to matters of Awareness and Comprehension - which on one hand sort of admits an almost willfull ignorance of the principles themselves on an individual scale of Consciousness; and on the other hand takes a general relativistic point of view on what constitutes reality anway.

That is to say - on the one hand cause-effect on a universal scale cannot be denied. If something appears to have happened for no reason, that is only because we do not comprehend the cause. That scale is a mass consciousness/awareness scale point of view and if your cognition is able to handle increasingly complex systems you will eventually comprehend a total order to existence (that's a hypothetical state of awareness of course).

However, we are of course to different degrees limited by our own Awareness and Comprehension so for the individual - if something appears to be chaotic in nature, and we do not attempt to reach a comprehension of the underlying order that is, on a universal scale, actually manifest there, and we treat it as chaos, will it not appear to act chaotically? Is that perception of chaos possibly a form of detachment from order? Even in small scales - we might understand the order in some things but not in others, but those small things in which we do not comprehend that order, maybe our own minds can impose order (relativistic order, that is, just as in relativistic chaos?)

This is akin to the shroedingers cat idea. Except in that case there are two scientists, and one of the them knows whether the cat is dead or not, but the two of them will never meet. The situation remains 'chaotic' to one of them and 'concrete' to the other.

Illustrated, say a wouldbe mage is attempting to affect a weather system. Where he is standing, the sky is clear and he wants it to rain, so he whips up some kind of spell to make it rain. In a few hours the sky gets cloudy and then it begins to rain. He didn't read any weather reports before hand, no one told him rain was coming, he hasn't developed some kind of observational ability to know that it was going to rain. From his ponit of view it was sunny, and then it was rainy, with no apparent chain of events to link the two except for his magical intervention.

However, one mile away another person checked the weather, saw that it was going to rain because air in the northern atmosphere was heated up by the sun, rose, and consequently resulted in a notherly wind which brought towards this previously sunny area a cloud front fresh of the warm atlantic ocean and ripe for a rain storm.

From the one point of view there was an element of chaos which could be manipulated to produce rain - from the other there was never any chaos to begin with.

Is chaos really just ignorance then? And if so what does that make Order? Are the two really antithetical in the first place or are we missing other elements - Like Bym suggested (maybe jokingly) a trine? Chaos... Order... and the thing which connects them? Two poles cannot exist alone with one another - two objects require the space between them.

Mmm, that's all I have right now - this subject is not one that I spend a great deal of time considering or studying. But, can you really study Chaos anyway?

peace

As an afterthought, possibly from an awareness point of view, chaos can really be 'percieved' when we are entirely present in this very moment, divorced totally from past experience and future consideration. Then we do not reason or comprehend cause and effect. If we divorce ourselves so completely from past and future based thinking - like a zen master or something - then everything that we observe simply is, with not precedent or similarity to other phenomenon, and is therefore an unfathomable mystery and completely chaotic. We are not so much discovering chaos as we are surrendering to a state of comprehensive oblivion and being-ness.

Posted by: SororZSD23 Jan 22 2010, 10:05 AM

I am much in accord with Vagrant. Chaos, technically speaking, is that which underlies Cosmos. Chaos is the Boundless (“the disordered state of unformed matter and infinite space that existed before the ordered universe [the Cosmos].” It is the hypostatis--or matrix or "divine ground." Cosmos is Chaos limited or made measurable by Nous (the Intellectual Principle or Divine Mind). Chaos magick principle is also informed by Chaos theory: “system behavior that depends so sensitively on the system’s precise initial conditions that it is, in effect, unpredictable and cannot be distinguished from a random process, even though it is deterministic in a mathematical sense.” Chaos theory talks about "strands" and "trajectories" in mathematical equations that are way beyond my comprehension but that can probably be translated into the philosophy of "interdependent arising."

Posted by: Dooley Jan 23 2010, 08:07 PM

Chaos and Order are abstracts steeped in semantical confusion. To discuss them like they are actual things is, in my opinion, worthless for anything other than entertainment.

But it's whatever.

Posted by: Traceless Jan 25 2010, 10:47 PM

QUOTE(Dooley @ Jan 23 2010, 07:07 PM) *

Chaos and Order are abstracts steeped in semantical confusion. To discuss them like they are actual things is, in my opinion, worthless for anything other than entertainment.

But it's whatever.


Precisely, it is merely an abstract mental exercise attempting to shrink an infinite unfathomability into some limited conceptual understanding.

Posted by: SororZSD23 Jan 26 2010, 09:19 AM

QUOTE(Dooley @ Jan 23 2010, 09:07 PM) *

Chaos and Order are abstracts steeped in semantical confusion. To discuss them like they are actual things is, in my opinion, worthless for anything other than entertainment.




They aren't being discussed as "things"; they're being discussed as concepts. Concepts are thoughts; thoughts are both " things" and precede things. Read up on the doctrine of emanation in Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Kabbalah, Samkhya, and Tantra book.gif and then we can discuss Order, Chaos, Existence, Consciousness, Thought, and Form and metaphor and how this relates to the concepts of Chaos and Order. blablabla.gif Chaos and Order (Cosmos) have distinct definitions that date back millennia and thus are not "steeped in semantical confusion." They are terms through which experience is explained. I think this chat board discussion (chat boards are for entertainment as well as informational purposes, btw) is discussing this and its importance in magical theory and application. In this discussion on Chaos we are, in part, exploring the role of consciousness, perception, and attention in explaining how and why things happen or exist (and the next step, how to willfully make things happens instead of being nuts and bolts in the Machine). The revelation then emerges is that things happen outside of human perception and frontal brain mechanisms and that existence is not really anthropocentric but is informed by impersonal forces and dynamics--concepts that boggle the human brain and thus form the basis of lively discussion. And also the big thought arises that all meaning (thoughts, concepts, parameters, paradigms, Ordering of things) is provisional--a concept that should be very liberating but also wigs out a lot of people--also giving rise to dynamic conceptualization and discussion. If for nothing else, conceptualizing grows neural pathways and staves off senile dementia.






Posted by: bym Jan 26 2010, 10:09 AM

Nicely put!
I may not agree on everything in prior discussion(s) but it helps to exercise my brain...I'm never too old or too rigid to change or learn new things!
The plasticity of ones mind is key in so many aspects of living! In order to maintain my illusion(s) I may refute this last statement! LOL!

Posted by: Dooley Jan 26 2010, 02:40 PM

QUOTE(SororZSD23 @ Jan 26 2010, 09:19 AM) *

They aren't being discussed as "things"; they're being discussed as concepts. Concepts are thoughts; thoughts are both " things" and precede things. Read up on the doctrine of emanation in Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Kabbalah, Samkhya, and Tantra book.gif and then we can discuss Order, Chaos, Existence, Consciousness, Thought, and Form and metaphor and how this relates to the concepts of Chaos and Order. blablabla.gif Chaos and Order (Cosmos) have distinct definitions that date back millennia and thus are not "steeped in semantical confusion." They are terms through which experience is explained. I think this chat board discussion (chat boards are for entertainment as well as informational purposes, btw) is discussing this and its importance in magical theory and application. In this discussion on Chaos we are, in part, exploring the role of consciousness, perception, and attention in explaining how and why things happen or exist (and the next step, how to willfully make things happens instead of being nuts and bolts in the Machine). The revelation then emerges is that things happen outside of human perception and frontal brain mechanisms and that existence is not really anthropocentric but is informed by impersonal forces and dynamics--concepts that boggle the human brain and thus form the basis of lively discussion. And also the big thought arises that all meaning (thoughts, concepts, parameters, paradigms, Ordering of things) is provisional--a concept that should be very liberating but also wigs out a lot of people--also giving rise to dynamic conceptualization and discussion. If for nothing else, conceptualizing grows neural pathways and staves off senile dementia.



I was not trying to condescend when I said it was for entertainment, and I feel as if you've interpreted my statement that way. In my personal opinion most human endeavor is little more than entertainment, and entertainment is a very worthwhile pursuit.


And yes, I'm fully aware that they are concepts that have been discussed throughout the centuries. However, they are not the only 'terms through which experience is explained.' Order and Chaos are terms we use to try and define facets of existence, but they are ultimately man-made and unnecessary. This is what I meant by 'things'(sorry for the sub-par rhetoric, I didn't mean to spark a discussion, merely to put in my two cents). When I used the word 'things' I was implying something with a definite, concrete, inescapable nature. A nature that I believe man-made concepts like Order and Chaos intrinsically lack.

As for semantical confusion, I meant that people have different views of what Chaos or Order even are. This very discussion has pointed out that there are differing views on the subject. And, for an even more literal example of semantics, the word chaos: which now is thought of as a great and unpredictable disorder, was originally thought of as a mere void, empty of all substance. If this difference in definition isn't an example of semantical confusion, I'd be hard-pressed to find one.

EDIT: In conclusion, if you are discussing them as abstracts subject to human perspective, then we have no disagreement. I believe this is the case, but I have been wrong before. bigwink.gif

Posted by: SororZSD23 Jan 26 2010, 04:09 PM

QUOTE(Dooley @ Jan 26 2010, 03:40 PM) *

EDIT: In conclusion, if you are discussing them as abstracts subject to human perspective, then we have no disagreement. I believe this is the case, but I have been wrong before. bigwink.gif



Of course. That is exactly what everyone is doing in this discussion.


I don't think I'm going to add more to this for now except to remind:


"Nothing is true, everything is permitted"-- penned by William S. Burroughs, not the 11th century jihadist Hassan Ibn Sabbah, contrary to popular lore

and

All meaning is provisional and has no basis in absolute reality (so sayeth SororZSD23).

Posted by: esoterica Jan 27 2010, 09:25 AM

hi - back - well, if you lived inside one inch inside a ruler, and you moved (raised, expanded, whatever) your awareness from just the inch that you were in, to become aware of all of the inches in the whole ruler, what you would see would be all the inches stacked end to end with all the stuff going on in each, i.e. 'chaos' - dumbing down the input to where you only see what you can control is what we ordinarily do, and to become aware of the chaotic view is to let go of control, something the built-in survival mechanism called our ego doesn't like to do, and therefore to see chaos is to become chaos - to work within chaos requires accepting chaos and therefore losing control, and to produce an ordered result from chaos is to introduce control which make it no longer chaotic! - semantics imply order so it/they cannot apply to chaos, but humans reject chaos (both the empty set version or the lack or order version) and try to apply any order (even incorrect order is desired over none at all), so wouldn't an incorrect semantic assumption be desired when speaking about chaos?

"its a hole for letting the perfect out"

Posted by: Praxis Nov 10 2011, 08:32 AM

Six years ago, I explained what Chaos is to me as you folks can read earlier in this thread.
I have engaged many people in conversation, about the topic - and engaged a lot of contemplation in relation to my ongoing experience - since then.

I have repeatedly noticed that many (not all) people want to make Chaos primary in their perspectives. Historic, as well as popular culture, supports that arrangement - in addition to further explaining Chaos as a kind of randomness, mayhem, havoc, pandemonium, and even evil. That explanation is often further compounded by analogizing Chaos with darkness. When put in epic analogical opposition to light, which then infuses the roguish flavor of a daring and dashing rebelliousness against whatever paradigm(s) is/are associated with light - then all together the result instigates a titillating fascination for those who yearn to proclaim their individuality by bucking what they perceive to be the prevailing Status Quo. To me, it's very much akin to folks who gravitate toward making characters who champion, comprise, and are regarded as the "dark side" of a video game - where such are seen as somehow being more "bad ass" and "cooler".

I have come to know that Chaos is neither primary nor a word for referencing randomness, mayhem, havoc, etc... That knowing remains based upon my experience. When I attune my awareness to the primordial background, Chaos does not antecede everything else.

Although I was correct about discerning that Chaos arises from not comprehending Order, it has taken me a while to discern that I was mistaken about Order being the Chaos that I comprehend. As accurate as the role of comprehension - and as tight and mutually supportive as my earlier explanation for Chaos and Order, relative to each other - was, the mutual spin of that interconnected explanation failed by excluding experiential Prime.

Crafting a linguistic update here requires me to take the terms, shake them free of my previous explanations, and re-arrange the words more accurately to reflect my current awareness. I'm also going to introduce a few more terms into the explanation here, and so refresh explanations for them as well while I'm at it. So if you are the kind of person who seriously suffers from shocked sensibilities by such wordsmithing, you might want to stop reading right now.



Ordos (Order) is Prime and appears to me according to two ways, directly dependent upon my comprehension.

When I comprehend Ordos - it appears to me as Cosmos.
Cosmos is the Order that I comprehend.

When I do not comprehend Order - it appears to me as Chaos.
Chaos is the Order that I do not comprehend.

Transforming awareness of Ordos as Chaos to awareness of Ordos as Cosmos -
transforming from not comprehending experience to comprehending experience -
occurs according to the dynamic that I reference as Logos.



Another way of saying it:


The primordial dynamic of my ongoing experience is orderly.
As I use the dynamic process of logic (Logos) and craft comprehension of my experience, it appears to me as cosmic.
Not using logic to craft comprehension causes my experience to appears as chaotic.


Refraining from mistaking what I just explained above as any sort of justification for academic mentation requires noticing and remembering that I employ the term "logic" in a different way than how it has come to be habitually and popularly used - and that it also thus remains free from the classical limitations associated with the word.

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