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 Legalize?, where do you stand?
legalization of drugs vs. war on terror
Do you think drugs should be legalized?
yes, all drugs [ 40 ] ** [43.01%]
yes, but only certain drugs i.e. weed, salvia [ 45 ] ** [48.39%]
no, all drugs including alcohol are dangerous and should be made illegal [ 2 ] ** [2.15%]
no, the drugs that already illegal should stay that way [ 6 ] ** [6.45%]
Do you think "the war on drugs" is really worth it? Please explain your answer.
yes [ 7 ] ** [7.53%]
yes, but not the way its currently being conducted [ 21 ] ** [22.58%]
no [ 65 ] ** [69.89%]
If you could choose between "the war on terror" or "the war on drugs" which would it be?
The war on terror [ 23 ] ** [24.73%]
The war on drugs [ 8 ] ** [8.60%]
I'd like to see them combined [ 7 ] ** [7.53%]
niether [ 55 ] ** [59.14%]
Total Votes: 279
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Acid09
post Oct 5 2006, 03:38 PM
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This thread is kind of two pronged topic. For one I'm curious to see people's opinions about the legalization of drugs just in general. Then I want to know what readers think about the war on terror compared to the war on drugs.

Since I'm interested in what YOU guys think I'm going to just kinda step back for the moment and see if there are any takers.


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Vagrant Dreamer
post Oct 5 2006, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE(Acid09 @ Oct 5 2006, 05:38 PM) *
This thread is kind of two pronged topic. For one I'm curious to see people's opinions about the legalization of drugs just in general. Then I want to know what readers think about the war on terror compared to the war on drugs.

Since I'm interested in what YOU guys think I'm going to just kinda step back for the moment and see if there are any takers.


Bit of a gap between voting and posting, but anyway, here's my two cents.

Some drugs deserve to be illegal, at least until a safer version of it can be deduced - cocaine, heroine, crystal meth - these drugs and a few others are simply dangerous to the body, and highly addictive, they steal the soul of the user all together.

On the other hand, a person's body is their responsibility, and I don't really feel it is the job of the government to dictate what you can and cannot do to it. So, i'm on the fence about some drugs. Lesser of two evils kind of situation.

Others, marijuana, mushrooms, acid maybe, drugs that may have a short term adverse effect on the body but are otherwise harmless in reasonable dosages, these drugs (especially plants, and natural entheogens in general) ought to be not only legalized, but a normal part of our human culture. They have been around since the dawn of civilization just about (well, not acid) and should be respected as the helpful plants that they are, their spiritual nature aside. They're part of our connection to the earth.

The war on drugs itself is pointless and fruitless. There will always be drugs, but there doesn't always have to be prohibition - prohibition is a failed experiment, we keep trying it over and over again though. There has never been a substance of any kind which was totally eradicated with the help of prohibition. It just makes the habit expensive, and drug dealers rich. Making many drugs legal would drain money off the criminal class in america and make selling drugs a less attractive line of work. What people aren't 'allowed' to have, they will always go to great lengths to get. Plus, over half of congress are drug users, all of them if you count alcahol and tobacco.

The war on terror on the other hand.... that's a complicated issue. There will always be terrorists, or at least there always have been, in one form or another. There's always someone willing to die for a cause that not everyone agrees with, always someone challenging established ideals, and some of those people are going to get militant about it. We ought to keep on the war on terror, but we should go about it a better way. Bush suggests that the war on drugs and the war on terror are linked inextricably, but that's a ridiculous thing to think. We get most of our drugs from south of the country here in the USA, not the middle east, and in any case, legalization of some drugs would be as effective a means of cutting off those supposed terrorist funds as spending billions of dollars to eliminate the 'drug problem' here.

Terrorists, though, ought to be dealt with all the time. A task force specifically for counter-terrorism should be a staple not just in our American government, but in every governement, and the whole world ought to work together a lot more than we do. Of course, it certainly isn't easy with the monkey at the top of the American government stepping on everyone's proverbial toes. The war on terror will never be over. It will go on until there just aren't enough people to make war anymore. Too bad, but in a way stuff like that - war, famine, disease - is the only method the earth has to keep population under control. It's a bummer, but too many people and we all die together.

that's what I think for now, anyway.

peace


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GaiusOctavian
post Oct 6 2006, 08:21 AM
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1) The drugs that are illegal are illegal for a reason.
2) Of course it's worth it. The only thing worse than seeing drunks on the street, is seeing potheads & crackheads on the street. If you have to lock up every crackhead & pothead, so be it. No room in the jails? Build more jails. Say more than half the population will be incarcerated? Ah well, better for those of us who are out.
3) Both, nothing else to say.

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post Oct 6 2006, 08:27 AM
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I still don't understand why exactly Marijuana isn't legal though. I mean, smoking is more dangerous than ganja (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)


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Angalor
post Oct 6 2006, 09:15 AM
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Honestly, weed has too many healing properties to be considered an illegal narcotic. If you ask many practitioners (doctors;nurses) they'd agree, the ban on marijuana is ridiculous. Now, meth is completely different. I was recently looking around for lye and was informed that the company that made red devil lye is being taken off the market/shelves and replaced with red devil drain opener (without lye). Why? Because it's used in the production of meth. I was a little astonished at this, since lye, if gotten on your skin, can actually permanently burn and scar your flesh. You can still buy lye, but you have to ask for it since they don't keep it on the shelves...just along with a brand of sudaphed (sp?). Many have you buy lye in bulk over the internet only. Now the thought of putting something as caustic and dangerous as lye mixed with ephedrine along with other chemicals and putting that into my body just doesn't seem to pleasing. A lot of the production can be seen anywhere, in my small town of 2000 people there were 4 labs busted within the last year. Most of the consumers were kids ages 11 to 17.

Ok..did a quick check on what goes into or used to make meth...

* Over-the-counter cough, cold, asthma, and allergy medicines containing pseudoephedrine or ephedrine
* Acetone
* Rubbing and isopropyl alcohol
* Iodine
* Starter fluid (ether)
* Gas additives (methanol)
* Drain cleaner (sulfuric acid)
* Lithium batteries
* Rock salt
* Matchbooks (red phosphorus)
* Lye
* Paint thinner
* Aluminum foil
* Glassware
* Coffee filters
* Propane tanks

....wow...

I'd prefer pot...I mean..come on!!! LINK

This post has been edited by Angalor: Oct 6 2006, 09:36 AM


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A_Smoking_Fox
post Oct 6 2006, 10:33 AM
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i think it is every human beings own choice to take into themselves whatever they want.
I think prohibition of any substance is just plain stupid. The goverment are not your parents, and have no right to claim they know better.

It doesn't matter if it kills people instantly, it should not be made illegal. Everyone should have the freedom to choose what they find right for themselves.

Some rules i can agree to is to forebid driving under influence of some drugs, and being in public under influence of some drugs should be illegal.
under the influence of any psychedelic it should in my book be illegal to go outside on the street.
things like that.

But in the comfort of private property, everything should be legal.
Also carying drugs on you, without consuming them should always be legal.
Growing drugs should also be completely legal.
however selling them should be illegal except for those with special permits, this to garanty quality and reduce crime. All drugs should be available from the local pharmacist.


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GaiusOctavian
post Oct 6 2006, 10:57 AM
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Please, american's are obese as it is WITHOUT marijuana munchies. With the bad rep this country has the last thing we need are snotnosed stoners & overweight middle aged men being more annoying than they originaly are while under the influence of weed.The problem is, with marijuana, you don't know who'll be under the influence until they go & do something stupid. Unlike alchohol, where you can tell someone is drunk. Oh, so someone's eyes get glassy & they get the giggles, all you have to do to pass an officer is keep your head down & keep a straight face for a few seconds until he passes. No, marijuana should stay illegal & I do hope it does.

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distillate
post Oct 6 2006, 12:47 PM
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I was just reading an article yesterday that I thought may be of interest to this discussion http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenew...K-MARIJUANA.xml


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Acid09
post Oct 6 2006, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE
Please, american's are obese as it is WITHOUT marijuana munchies.

Munchies are a myth and more of a pop culture joke than anything else.

I'll admit I started this thread because of a new bill thats being put on my county's ballot - the decrimminalization for adults (18+) possessing one ounce or less of marijuana is what it amounts to. Now its not saying go out and get high. Its not saying driving stoned is cool. Its not saying selling drugs to kids on the streets is ok. Its an attempt to recognize that the police have bigger issues to deal with than marijuana users i.e. meth and the thousands of ma and pa cooks (litterally thousands).

I think the idea is a step in the right direction. Decriminalizing pot will relieve the police of some serious paper work and responsible users will be able to use pot without fear of being prosecuted. On the other hand I think it has the potential to turn my county into a drug trafficking county. I mean if you're a petty dope smuggler you pay attention to which counties have laxed laws on pot so you can carry it through those lines. So all you'd need is to get four people over the age of 18 and you can smuggle a 1/4 pound a trip. Each person only has the limmited amount so nobody can be legally prosecuted. Then again local authorities may be able to regulate the trafficking issue.


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GaiusOctavian
post Oct 6 2006, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE(Acid09 @ Oct 6 2006, 03:19 PM) *
police have bigger issues to deal with than marijuana users


Yeah, that's what they said about the mexicans. Whatever, so long as no one tries to get anyone in my family into anything, or doesn't do it in front of me, do what you want, just do it far, far away.

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UnKnown1
post Oct 6 2006, 03:54 PM
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If its something that can kill you via overdose then it should be regulated. If it is something like weed which you can not overdose on then I think it should not be regulated. Smoking pot does not impare driving much. Its like drinking a couple of beers. You feel it but are still under the legal blood alchohal level. I do sometimes get the munchies though. Also sometimes it makes me stupid. However at other times it leads to spiritual enlightenment. Smoking weed before driving no problem. Smoking weed before operating a chainsaw big problem!

Peace.

Smoke up! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/partytime.gif)

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bym
post Oct 6 2006, 08:58 PM
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You can OD on bleach....*sigh* prohibitions don't work. They tried it innumerable times and it doesn't work. You will always have those who disagree with 'the system'. There should be regulations that cover the safety of others lives in the hands of a drug user, ie no pilot should be a drug addict. If they are, they should be removed from that job, not jailed or persecuted.
Unfortunately the 'war on-' people are doing this either to get rich or are being manipulated by those people. In the USA as long as peoples bellies are full (with whatever, incidentally) and they have their MTV, you'll never see the system change. Hell, all Clinton did was to get some oral sex from a willing adult and they tried to impeach him, yet Bush & co. have dissolved years of civil reform and have now done away with part of the Constitution (habeus corpus), consorted with rackateers and killed innocent people in an illegal war and they are still free and have no suits against them! *disgust*
BTW...I'm not too happy to find that this poll was a PUBLIC poll, open to all who wish to read it (and take the poll). Nope, not happy. It is because of fear of persecution that black markets exist. Greed and the lust for power are the driving force(s). Altruism is rarely the reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/goodnight.gif)


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Acid09
post Oct 7 2006, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE
You can OD on bleach....*sigh* prohibitions don't work.

Recently I accidentally overdosed on caffine. I took a couple herbal energy pills called "nitro". THey were over the counter and I didn't think they were anything other than "pep" pills. I did read the back label I'm not pregnant nor do I have any real health concerns. So I took both with an energy drink. About 2 hours or so later I had to go to the hospital. If I hadn't I would have certainly died. I ended up giving myself a strong sensitivity to caffine as well.

What truely pisses me off about this war on drugs is that we have these legal drugs that are over the counter and not regulated. They can be sold to anyone if not at least people over the age of 18. Now how many people who take these kinds of legal drugs ever even think to read the warning label? Let alone take these things responsibly. I certainly didn't and it about cost me my life. I've never had that problem with pot. Ever. While I wouldn't condone or advocate the use of weed to minors or those who may need to drive, it doesn't make sense to me why we'd keep it illegal while there are far worse and legal products out there.

What a person does in the privacy of their own home is their own business. I really don't care what kind of drug or activity it is as long as its not harming or endangering others. And I do think this country is a drug culture in denial. We live in a society where there is a cure-all drug for everything. Even for things that may seem vain - dietary pills and sexual enhancers. We have so many different chemicals in food and nasty fats and what not but something as simple as a plant is outlawed. As far as marijuana goes I think we can see some obvious practical reasons why it should *not* be illegal. Namely it cuts a major source of income out of organized crime. However simply decrimminalizing it is like saying we know its not as bad as a problem as other things but we're not going to let Americans grow their own. It doesn't resolve the issue of smuggling and organized crime. It simply creates another illusion as disasterous as this war on terror. We're fighting terrorism so we must feel safe. We're fighting "drugs" (not the cartels) so drugs are not a big issue. But in reallity we're just putting a blanket over the fire which will only become its fuel and potentially make the situation worse. I'm voting yes to decrimminalize pot but only because I feel it'll at least keep otherwise good people out of jail for simply choosing to smoke some weed. One of my best friends just got a possession ticket. He works 7 days a week sometimes 10+ hours a day. He is a good hard working American and I think he should be able to smoke weed if he chooses.

I made the poll public because I thought if I didn't I'd have to invite people to vote. I didn't know it just hid the names of voters and how they responded.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Oct 9 2006, 11:51 AM


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kairos
post Oct 8 2006, 06:14 PM
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Whatever it is that one choses to do to oneself without IMMEDIATELY harming another human being should in no way be prohibited by empowered authority. The entire logic which prohibition is founded upon is completely un-constitutional and immoral. This being said, I acknowledge that decriminalizing ALL drugs (especially if done within a very short period) would undoubtedly have some extremely messy results. Because of this my answer to drug legalization was qualified to those without chemical addiction potential (such as the various psychedellic drugs: marijuana, DMT, LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, and the various naturally occurring entheogens where certain psychotropic chemicals occur.) The war on drugs is perhaps one the largest catastrophes in this countries history. Not only does it imprison countless users of drugs as benign as marijuana (by far the most commonly drug people are arrested for) thus expending thousands of dollars for imprisonment and legal effort from police officers, and exposing many relatively innocent people to extremely hostile and negative environments in prison, which in effect highly increase the likelihood of their becoming serious criminals upon release. Oh, and there's the fact that the war on drugs HAS BEEN COMPLETELY INEFFECTIVE!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/oops.gif) There has been NO reliable information reporting a decrease in drug usage by or trafficking into the country. In fact, many credible statistical organizations report an INCREASE in illegal drug usage since the beginning of the war on drugs. With the decriminalization of at least the less harmful,(and in my opinion extremely positive drugs capable of immense emotional, psychological, and spiritual growth when taken UNDER PROPER CONDITIONS) the national budget would decrease by millions. And this money could go to EFFECTIVE centers and programs to aid people with REAL addictions, both chemical and or behavioral instead of sending them to prisons full of thieves, rapists, pedophiles, and murderers. I won't even mention the hypocrisy of alcohol being legal as many of the previous posters have made perfectly eloquent points about it. And while I do think that the immediate present probably couldn't be capable of dealing with complete drug decriminalization, I think that EVENTUALLY no substance should be banned (controlled maybe) from usage by anyone. People have the legal right to risk their lives sky-diving, and to become addicted to t.v., food, porn, and numerous other activities. Anyway, I'll get off of my soap-box now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drugs.gif)


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Acid09
post Oct 9 2006, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE
Whatever it is that one choses to do to oneself without IMMEDIATELY harming another human being should in no way be prohibited by empowered authority. The entire logic which prohibition is founded upon is completely un-constitutional and immoral.

I agree. Keeping drugs illegal is impossing moral beliefs on others. I don't think its fair to society. Just look at the propaganda reals. How can people make an informed desicion if they are being lied to?
QUOTE
Not only does it imprison countless users of drugs as benign as marijuana (by far the most commonly drug people are arrested for) thus expending thousands of dollars for imprisonment and legal effort from police officers, and exposing many relatively innocent people to extremely hostile and negative environments in prison, which in effect highly increase the likelihood of their becoming serious criminals upon release.

They can actually improove their knowledge of crime and knowledge is power. Once people get that kind of power they tend to exploit it.
QUOTE
In fact, many credible statistical organizations report an INCREASE in illegal drug usage since the beginning of the war on drugs.

I think its partly due to the fact that younger generations are bombarded by media with messages saying drug use is ok. On top of that the main front for the war on drugs is at the US boarders, not the nations that actually produce the chemicals we're trying to keep out.

When it comes to decrimminalizing harder drugs I get mixed feelings due to my own personal experience. While I wouldn't try to prevent somebody from using any drug so long as they are choosing to do so and not endangering anybody, things I've witnessed are not things I'd wish on anybody--except maybe a few really fucked up people. Now the drug trade is dishonest and often very dangerous. Drug dealers (DDs) willing to sell to teens and even younger kids. DDs willing to cut dope just to make a 100% more profit. Sometimes they cut the dope so bad that people (esp addicts) buy more cut than dope. Its a fishing game really. Get somebody gulibile rich guy to think your shit is the best and slowly put more cut into his bag. By the time he realizes it he's already an addict. Some dealers are not only dishonest like that but there business is praying on the guilibility of others. I don't think I ever met a DD who, when asked, did not say their drugs were the best out there. Dealers can lace weed with coke, crack, meth, pcp even gassoline or some other solvant. Unless you really know who you're buying from, there's no telling what could be in your weed. Same is true for speed pills, x or anything else that is manufactured. Coke is generally cut with ether or baking soda. Sometimes people selling mushrooms are really just selling stuff they lifted from the store. THere's no telling the purity of any LSD or mescaline.

Then we don't have to just worry about people getting bad drugs or cheated we have to worry about the extra crime that comes with the drug trade - gangs, cliques and mafia. Drug dealers shooting eachother on the streets in turf wars. Almost litterally taking out a guy on street corner to peddle drugs until somebody else shoots them. Because of the price of drugs serious addicts have to commit crime as well. If you ever lost your car stereo it was probably a drug addict that took it.

Because of the crime and shady underworld I'd vote for legalization just to put these people out of business. But thats legalizing the drugs, not decrimminalizing them. Doing that makes drug users able to use without being prosecuted, but it doesn't end the organized crime or move the front on this war on drugs to cartels themselves. IN fact I think decrimminalizing drugs just lets organized crime have more liberty to conduct business. I'd only vote for it to help responsible users.

On the other side of the coin I've seen some pretty sad people. Single mothers who have to buy crack with food stamps or exchange for sexual favors. Sometimes the fathers of their children are the dealers. Crack houses with people shooting up drugs, often not even pure drugs, because they are *slaves* to the drug. Granted out of choice maybe they would not have made the same choice if they knew what they were getting into. I mean I have witnessed hell, litterally, and its not something I think is in anyway beneficial to society. Even if these hard drugs are made legal, who's to say any legal business would be any more honest? And once again I have to look at the opposing angle - I do know people who can handle their drugs. Their addicts by choice sure, but they're also not bums. Some addicts, and indeed this is true of the middle class and the rich, are perfectly productive members of society. They just choose to use drugs. I see no crime in that. I can't logically fathom why a decent person who drinks heavily would not be a crimminal, yet an equally decent person who uses meth is.Then again when there are children involved it can get just dispicable. Imagine being a father and a major drug addict with a dept to a drug dealer. So to pay for his depts he sells his 13 year old daughter on the streets. Lets strange men to do her (and sometimes several kids of the same father/mother) whatever they want aside from kill them. Its discusting just to think about and it does happen.

SO through arguing with myself I ultimately conclude that we should prosecute people for their crimes, not their habbits. Using meth might not be more of a crime than alcohol, but prostituting your children is. Thus I think society should differentiate between crimminals, and drug users. In principle it is not a crime to use drugs. What a person does in the privacy of their house IS their own and no other's business. But drug users should be held accountable for their actions. And because of my prior experience with hard drugs I am biased about them. People can, and I think should, choose not to use hard drugs. Even if it happens to be legal.

When it comes to terrorism I think we should be rounding up crack dealers, not American Arabs.


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A_Smoking_Fox
post Oct 11 2006, 04:32 AM
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QUOTE
When it comes to decrimminalizing harder drugs I get mixed feelings due to my own personal experience. While I wouldn't try to prevent somebody from using any drug so long as they are choosing to do so and not endangering anybody, things I've witnessed are not things I'd wish on anybody--except maybe a few really fucked up people.


you can OD on alcohol without much problem. It is also extremely addictive.
Alcohol has been classified as hard drug, so why isn't it illegal.

Also, why are so many people against drugs, like marihuana, who are classified as soft drugs, while they are drinking beers by the gallon.
They are consuming hard drugs at the local bar, while pointing fingers at the marihuana smoker.

I have all the respect for people that don't do drugs, but the above is just absurd, alcohol is a hard drug, thats just a fact.
I drink and smoke weed. And i will choose weed over alcohol anyday.
There is no hangover, it is much more fun, you can actually have a meaningfull conversation when you smoked often very philosophical. (depending on who your with)
And you feel much much better about it the next day than when drinking.
Even when smoking a huge amount there is no hangover whatsoever.

I don't condemn alcohol, there are many people that enjoy 2 or 3 beers daily for their entire lives without much problems. yet there are many that end up in AAA meetings with some sad storys to tell. I've known people like that myself and its not pretty.

But those sad storys should not force people that enjoy 2 or 3 beers once in a while to stop enjoying them. They are harming no one.
The same goes with marihuana or even coke or speed.
While i would not use the later two myself, i would at least want to know that it is my own choise to do so.
And other people might even enjoy a line or 2 of coke a week, i see no harm in that.
And if they turn to be problematic users, they should be able to find some help with it.


There are also so many myths about drug use, that it is becoming ridiculous.
I once had a teacher in school telling me a story about some crazy marihuana user flunking out of school while studying under influence.
I myself smoked alot of weed when i was in school. I finished many projects in school while smoking weed when i was making them.
On all of these projects i scored higher than 16/20. This was in higher education for 18 to 21 year olds, so not the easiest projects.
The weed actually helped me perform better, while working at a deadline being completely relaxed about it.

The many myths about weed are just plain fake and ridiculous, and its sad if you believe them without questioning them.
This is from a smoker himself, i have used and tested the drug for a long long long time, and i have no problems with it.
I can drive when i smoked, but it makes me a little paranoid of police control, so i don't like driving when high.
I would also like to see some regulation on driving on weed, like one joint or something, so i know how much i can smoke befire driving.
When completely stoned i think it is unwise to drive.
I had munchies once or twice, but that is also a rare occurance, it only happens sometimes when i smoke huge amounts. And even then its rare.

I am 22 right now, and i've already decided that i will never stop using marihuana. I am a programmer in the I.T. buisines and i am quite good at it. By no means am i an outcast of society or anything. Yet i have had amounts of weed in my house that could get me in jail for a few years, thus ruining my life.
I cannot see how this is fair. As i said i do my part in society, i can do my job without any problems, nobody even knows i smoke but my closest friends. yet if the cops would find out i would be in trouble. And for what, it just makes me mad when i think about it. I am not a criminal, i am just a normal human being. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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GaiusOctavian
post Oct 11 2006, 08:04 AM
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Sorry, buddy, I've been drinking for years. I'm not addicted, I don't get hangovers, and I'm able to carry out an intelligent conversation, and I don't drink beers, either, hard liquor. All of my friends drinks & they're in the same boat as I am. Point is it's illegal. Why the hell should they make marijuana legal for those who smoke it, if they're already breaking a law, sorry, I pray it stays illegal. I hear people say, oh, it's less dangerous than cigarettes, bullshit, smoking ANYTHING is dangerous. The fact is that since it's illegal not everyone does it & it costs way more than cigarettes, if it were to be legalized & marketed it could me more accessible to people & more people would smoke it. It's against the law, don't like it? don't live in north america, that's my 2 cents.

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Acid09
post Oct 11 2006, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE
you can OD on alcohol without much problem. It is also extremely addictive.
Alcohol has been classified as hard drug, so why isn't it illegal.

few years ago I had to go to the hospital because of alcohol. My BAC was .378, near commatose. But I was not drinking responsibly by any means. I drank about a half gallon of vodka to myself and didn't even go to the hospital until some hours later. Odds are my BAC was higher. And odds are if I didn't have good friends I never would have made it there and odds are I would have died. Take it from me I know how dangerous alcohol can be. Needless to say I haven't drank like that for a long time. now the doctors thought I tried to kill myself and I had to explain to them that some months prior I was a very heavy drinker. Having been away from drinking so heavily I had simply lost concept of my tollerance. Apperantly people can stop breathing with a BAC of about .2, or 4 times the legal limmit for driving.
QUOTE
Also, why are so many people against drugs, like marihuana, who are classified as soft drugs, while they are drinking beers by the gallon.
They are consuming hard drugs at the local bar, while pointing fingers at the marihuana smoker.

Its probably a cultural thing.
QUOTE
I don't condemn alcohol, there are many people that enjoy 2 or 3 beers daily for their entire lives without much problems. yet there are many that end up in AAA meetings with some sad storys to tell. I've known people like that myself and its not pretty.

Imagine the stories heroine or crack addicts tell. Whats just as bad, imo, are the people who end up hooked on perscription meds because of dose happy doctors.
QUOTE
The many myths about weed are just plain fake and ridiculous, and its sad if you believe them without questioning them.
This is from a smoker himself, i have used and tested the drug for a long long long time, and i have no problems with it.
I can drive when i smoked, but it makes me a little paranoid of police control, so i don't like driving when high.
I would also like to see some regulation on driving on weed, like one joint or something, so i know how much i can smoke befire driving.
When completely stoned i think it is unwise to drive.
I had munchies once or twice, but that is also a rare occurance, it only happens sometimes when i smoke huge amounts. And even then its rare.

The problem is the way weed affects you might not affect somebody else the same. Pot, in its affects, is unpredictable. It won't kill you, unless you choke to death or take pure THC. But it can give people different reactions. A joint to you might seem reasonable but soembody else its a whirl wind. Personally I don't think anybody should drive or do things that can endanger others at all, on any drugs. Even the legal ones. Pot is also a very tollerance oriented drug. A heavy user might not really get high at all where somebody with a very low tollerance might get stoned off just two drags.
QUOTE
I am 22 right now, and i've already decided that i will never stop using marihuana. I am a programmer in the I.T. buisines and i am quite good at it. By no means am i an outcast of society or anything. Yet i have had amounts of weed in my house that could get me in jail for a few years, thus ruining my life.
I cannot see how this is fair. As i said i do my part in society, i can do my job without any problems, nobody even knows i smoke but my closest friends. yet if the cops would find out i would be in trouble. And for what, it just makes me mad when i think about it. I am not a criminal, i am just a normal human being.

I agree with you in principle, especially when it comes to marijuana. But not everybody handles their drugs responsibly. And some mis-use the glamour of drugs to influence others. Again what people do in their own homes is none of my business but if you're doing hard drugs on the street or doing things to get drugs that are illegal I think that is a problem.


QUOTE
Sorry, buddy, I've been drinking for years. I'm not addicted, I don't get hangovers, and I'm able to carry out an intelligent conversation, and I don't drink beers, either, hard liquor. All of my friends drinks & they're in the same boat as I am. Point is it's illegal.

So if you lived in the prohibition era you wouldn't drink at all? Even if your religion says its ok for communion or certain time of the year? Would you support a new law that made ALL drugs illegal, including alcohol?

You know I hear what you're saying; people who brake the law are asking to be prosecuted. Thats their choice and they will pay for it. Why? Because enough people in country say smoking weed is bad. The power of a democracy.
QUOTE
I hear people say, oh, it's less dangerous than cigarettes, bullshit, smoking ANYTHING is dangerous.

But this is where I gotta interject I meancome on man what do you think the booze is doing to your liver and kidnies? Any chemical you put in your system, including sugar, has potential to harm you in good enough quanities.
QUOTE
The fact is that since it's illegal not everyone does it & it costs way more than cigarettes, if it were to be legalized & marketed it could me more accessible to people & more people would smoke it. It's against the law, don't like it? don't live in north america, that's my 2 cents

Again I hear what you saying but think about it for a second. Not everybody drinks either. Some families think any alcohol at all is bad. Same for smoking. In fact there are those in the country who do want a ban on all drugs that are not medicinal. But consider this as well; If marijuana is the second greatest source of income for drug cartels. If it were legal and marketable here in the states the cartels would loose that profit. Not only that smoking weed is no more dangerous than smoking an unfiltered cigarette and you can't OD on it either. Besides when prohibition was lifted it just meant the people who already drank were no longer crimminals. There's no evidence that alcoholism sky rocketed after prohibition.

Finally America is a Democracy. Personally I think somebody who would leave the country because they want to smoke weed is stupid and a quiter. Its unAmerican and down right unpatriotic to give up so easily. I was born here. This country is my home. And I'll continue to stand up for what I believe.


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GaiusOctavian
post Oct 11 2006, 03:28 PM
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1) If alchohol were made illegal, yes, I'd stop. Like I said, I'm not addicted. But, it's not illegal & until it is, I'm going to continue to enjoy it.
2) About the alchohol & kidneys, you made my point. Any chemical that goes in your body does have the potential to harm your body, so, saying one is better than the other, is bullshit. Hell, if you're going to pull the weed has medicinal properties thing, there have been studies that have shown that drinking a cup of beer (Or wine, I forget) is actually good for you. It has medicinal properties, fine, let it ONLY be smoked by those with illnesses & let's have extensive tests on these illnesses to make sure that not every pothead in america doesn't fake his way to legaly owning marijuana.
3) If you love america, argue with the government about things that matter & are a real threat to this country & your well being, like terrorist, don't get stoned & protest weed should be legal in your tie dye shirts (& please, don't tell me "Oh man, that's stereotypical), any intelligent person reading my post would know when I'm using sarcasm.

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A_Smoking_Fox
post Oct 11 2006, 03:39 PM
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I must agree to the effect on your lungs from weed. however, there are other options, like vaporizers wich do not burn the plant substance so no smoke is produced.
I myself recently aquired one of those for those reasons. You can also eat the marihuana. Also, i smoke mariuhana about 2 or 3 times a month, so its not that often as a cigarette smoker that i smoke. using the vaporizer that will soon come to zero smoking of the marihuana.
I bought it becouse smoking weed is in fact a lot worse on your lungs than smoking cigarettes, it is often said that 1 joint equals about a pack of cigaretes when talking about damage to your lungs. And i recently started coughing the days after i smoked.

So in my book the smoking argument is not a good reason to keep it illegal.


Perhaps you don't get hangovers from your drinking, probably becouse you drink wisely and moderatly, but that does not mean the damage is not done.
However you like to twist or turn it, alcohol is in fact a hard drug, and it is really damaging your system when you consume it. Its not becouse it is legal that it is harmless.
In matters of toxicity to the system, alcohol is far far far more toxic than thc, wich is the active ingridient in marihuana. This is not something i just made up, it is proven by medical study. read this link if you don't believe me http://www.americanscientist.org/template/...print=yes#50979

Among other things, various psychedelics are also covered in the article. The toxicity of most psychedelics is so low that you'd have to consume pounds of the active ingredient for it to have any toxic effects. While to get an effect only a few micrograms are needed to get the full blown experience. This in contrast to alcohol where you need to consume much more of the ethanol to feel it. So i ask why can't the psychonout trip legally in the privacy of his own home. Why must it be illegal?
I have tripped myself, there is nothing dangerous or criminal about it, besides the fact that it is still illegal.

I see no harm in enjoying a beer, i like to drink myself, but its plain ignorant to claim weed is bad and should remain illegal, while you are enjoying a legal harddrug.
I do respect your against smoking, where you have a good point on its dangers. I myself don't like smoking cigaretes for those reasons. But those can be avoided by consumption or vaporizing of the marihuana. So those are not really good points in favor of the prohibition.

My point here is, its not becouse its the law that it is the right or just thing.
Sometimes laws have to be changed. I would rather see alcohol prohibited than weed, becouse that makes more sense, scientifically. Based on the stone cold facts.
But in the end i believe people should be free to choose their own drugs at all times.

Also, i don't live in america actually. I can buy my weed legally in my neighbouring country, the netherlands. Its importing it that puts me at risk.


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GaiusOctavian
post Oct 11 2006, 03:52 PM
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Who said I was using the smoking of it as my main arguement? Second, you can also put alchohol in a machine that turns it into vapors, and also works just as fine. When I was younger I had athsma & had a machine in which I put my medicine in & it did exactly that, so, the health thing is a two way street buddy. If it's legal in your country then why are you complaining? The 'war on terror' & 'war on drugs' are not exclusively, but mostly an american thing. So, you go smoke, get high, stoned, whatever your lingo is for it & we here in america will just make sure it doesn't get legalized.

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Acid09
post Oct 11 2006, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE
) About the alchohol & kidneys, you made my point. Any chemical that goes in your body does have the potential to harm your body, so, saying one is better than the other, is bullshit. Hell, if you're going to pull the weed has medicinal properties thing, there have been studies that have shown that drinking a cup of beer (Or wine, I forget) is actually good for you. It has medicinal properties, fine, let it ONLY be smoked by those with illnesses & let's have extensive tests on these illnesses to make sure that not every pothead in america doesn't fake his way to legaly owning marijuana.

Oh shit man. Lets not get into the "medicinal" values of marijuana. I mean serious brother one of the main arguements for legalizing weed has to do with its medicial qualities. And nobody said alcohol or weed was better than the (other than personal perfferance, which is silly to argue about). But if you're going to treat one chemical substance (one that *does* directly kill people and a lot of them too) as ok simply because the law says its ok then why not push for the legalization for another chemcial that for all intensive pruposes is no more harmful? IMO, even less harmful. Not only that but legalizing the stupid drug would take it out of the hands of crimminals who don't just smoke it but sell it and lace it. You know drug dealers. Real crimminals.

I'm not saying every punk teen should go out on the streets and get high and go skateboarding or whatever the f%*! kids do these days. I don't advoacte the use of mind altering substances of any kind when one has to do anything that requires a clear head (like a job or driving). Its stereotypical stoners that act stupid and cause problems that keep pot from being legalized. Cuz lets face it, if it weren't for the news and media that has those anti-pot commercials we wouldn't be having this converstation.
QUOTE
3) If you love america, argue with the government about things that matter & are a real threat to this country & your well being, like terrorist, don't get stoned & protest weed should be legal in your tie dye shirts (& please, don't tell me "Oh man, that's stereotypical), any intelligent person reading my post would know when I'm using sarcasm.

I must not be as smart as you. Must be too many reffers got to my small brain. And you said the stereotypes not me. The majority of terrorism is caused by the drug trade. If we could make a pie chart of terrorism in this nation the columbians and mexican cartels would take up the majority of the chart. Don't believe me? Look at every drug related gang fight, every cop killed, every innocent person caught in the cross fire, every drug addict addicted to cocaine, speed and heroine. Don't tell me its not terrorism. Fundamentalist Islam would occupy a small segment and aside from 9/11 most of the *American* targets have been military.

The main source of income from these cartels is cocaine, meth and weed. Weed is the second most profitable drug in the world. Why would America, a capitalist nation, not want to take that away from some small piss ant nation that hates us anyway? On top of that cannibis has many many other non-recreational uses.


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GaiusOctavian
post Oct 11 2006, 05:48 PM
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Excuse me buddy, I live in NYC, I'm friends with drug dealers, and I know them well enough to know that if it's not marijuana they're selling, it would be something else, so saying marijuana should be legalized to stop gang fights is, no offense, bullshit. Like I said earlyer, lock up everyone, build more jails. The users, the sellers, all of 'em.

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-Also being a NYer, let me just say that "and asside from" & "9/11" don't go well together, buddy.

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vulnera
post Oct 11 2006, 06:17 PM
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my view (if it isnt already obvious by the voting stats) is that all "drugs" could be legalized without destroying the world as we know it, lol.. i mean really now, nukes are legal but not pot??

...ganja especially, because of its numerous health benefits -of which hard alcohol has none, except thinning the blood.

lucky for me, i never gave a fat rats arse about wether it was legal or not, and im sitting here today able to see all the way down to my feet because of it. (undiagnosed pressure/pre-glaucoma -mainly because im "too young" for this diagnosis)

im a caregiver also, and believe me when i tell you that you would NOTturn down a granny undergoing chemo if she asked you to please, please, for the love of all that is holy get her some pot so she can live thru her treatment.

i wouldnt, i didnt, and im not ashamed. i only wish it was available to everyone who could benefit, in california and elsewhere.

i mean shoot, opium poppies are legally grown for the worldwide medicine trade... what kind of death can we offer to those who are so injured or in pain before their final breaths??? a quiet morphine dream lapse into unconsciousness is the kindest way out for millions. why the hell deny those in need their pot???? its wrong and its evil, just like denying morphine to someone who needs it.

thats all i have to say.

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distillate
post Oct 11 2006, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE(GaiusOctavian @ Oct 11 2006, 07:48 PM) *
Excuse me buddy, I live in NYC, I'm friends with drug dealers, and I know them well enough to know that if it's not marijuana they're selling, it would be something else, so saying marijuana should be legalized to stop gang fights is, no offense, bullshit. Like I said earlyer, lock up everyone, build more jails. The users, the sellers, all of 'em.

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux
-Also being a NYer, let me just say that "and asside from" & "9/11" don't go well together, buddy.



Why don't we just start killing them off, would be cheaper right? It cost over 30 thousand a year in tax dollars to jail one prisnors. Screw rehabilitation and trying to reform prisnors, those social workers have it all wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/swoon2.gif)


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GaiusOctavian
post Oct 11 2006, 08:47 PM
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QUOTE(distillate @ Oct 11 2006, 10:31 PM) *
Why don't we just start killing them off, would be cheaper right? It cost over 30 thousand a year in tax dollars to jail one prisnors. Screw rehabilitation and trying to reform prisnors, those social workers have it all wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/swoon2.gif)



Sure, why not.

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vulnera
post Oct 11 2006, 10:28 PM
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intelligent debate does not include calling for the physical killing off the opposition. the hell is this, mother russia???!?!?

but if it comes down to it, im prepared to fight... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bruce_h4h.gif)

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distillate
post Oct 11 2006, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE(vulnera @ Oct 12 2006, 12:28 AM) *
intelligent debate does not include calling for the physical killing off the opposition. the hell is this, mother russia???!?!?

but if it comes down to it, im prepared to fight... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bruce_h4h.gif)



I think it passed the point of intelligent debate when people who thought pot should be legal where told to go protest in their tie dye shirts, or maybe it was when it was suggested we build more prisons to put all of them in?


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vulnera
post Oct 11 2006, 10:50 PM
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QUOTE(distillate @ Oct 11 2006, 11:39 PM) *
I think it passed the point of intelligent debate when people who thought pot should be legal where told to go protest in their tie dye shirts, or maybe it was when it was suggested we build more prisons to put all of them in?

there is no way this is the end of intelligent debate, i just got here.

and as far as i know, the mention of killing began after my first post in this thread, hence the um, aggression.

i do hope everyone understands.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

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A_Smoking_Fox
post Oct 12 2006, 04:57 AM
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murder is illegal to you know...

ah well, you just go enjoying your hard drug alcohol then, see if i care.

and you are not the only voice in amerika on drugs. so don't go claiming your voice is the majority of america or even represents the american public.
you are just one silent voice, of little to no importance in the greater workings of america, beside the one vote you can cast on the elections.

You have in this entire topic not given a single logical explanation why it should be illegal.
give me some logic, some good medical study or reason why it should be illegal.
anything other than we americans will make sure it stays illegal..

for what, you have no good reason.

you can do whatever you want with your body, drink or don't drink, smoke or don't smoke, it is your choise.
but where do you get the right to push your ideals unto other people. Why should the state control what substances are legal or illegal.

Even more so if those substances, like marihuana are LESS, and i say it again, LESS HARMFUL than alcohol. You can vaporise ethanol if you want, it will probably get you killed rather quickly as it burns your lungs. alcohol is by all means a HARD DRUG, and marihuana is not.
So, if you want to practise what you preach, with your war on drugs, then at least be a little logical and stop drinking also.
Hell even forbid the use of alcohol then, at least you wont come over as a complete fool making one drug illegal while getting drunk on another far worse drug.


also, when i said i will never stop smoking weed, it is not becouse i am addicted or anything. Its a personal choise i make, becouse i enjoy the substance of it enough.
i often go months without any smoking. And i have no problem with that.

some interesting figures on drugs:

Alcohol use:
140 million Americans use alcohol
18 million of these abuse alcohol or are alcoholics.
100,000 deaths are due to alcohol, and an additional
100,000 deaths are alcohol related.

marihuana deaths per year -> 0

Wich means about 100.000 more people would live year if alcohol was not consumed. marihuana deaths are 0, so it does not mather any way around.
In fact, more people die of alcohol each year, then of terrorist attacks.

yet alcohol is legal, and marihuana is not. I fail to see why this is just or logical. Can you in your infinite wisdom please explain that to me?


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