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 So You Think You're Special., You sure?
Vagrant Dreamer
post Jan 10 2009, 11:12 AM
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Practicus
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I believe, or at least I hope, that i have a reputation here for being pretty patient in general, and being a decent fellow who rarely if ever loses his temper over stuff. I rarely have a reason - after all it's just a forum for all that it represents to me, and hopefully to others here as well; in the end how could I take anything here personally? I'd like to maintain that, and towards that end let me preface this just a bit.

I'm not angry. If anything, I'm amused, perhaps even amused at my own irritation - like when you see something that really gets under your skin, but is funny at the same time, and even funnier when you really lay into it. So, it's all in good humor, and I will continue to maintain an open 'door' policy to anyone who thinks they need help with a werewolf stalker, a thousand year old demon, an ancient evil mage from a past life, or aliens who are exacting a bloody price for the secrets they teach you while you sleep. That said...

...Stop it. Just stop it. It's as simple as that. You all know who you are. I'm tempted to pin this so you'll all see it. If you came here to find out how to best the black magician (who is a year older than you, 17) attacking you during math class, or here to learn the magic words that will give you control over the girl of your dreams, or how to enchant a sword to strike someone down without leaving a wound, or how to uncover your past life memories from when you were a grand high magus of the seventh circle of the super secret occult powers that were-are-and-will-be, press the back button, and go somewhere else. If you absolutely must post about your drama somewhere, go to occult forums. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/evil.gif)

Now, despite the fact that each and every one of you - save those that are actually clinically psychotic, in which case maybe you just don't know better - knows that you're just fantasizing and trying to get us to get involved with it, you are all none-the-less wondering, "Well how do you know? Maybe I am in an eternal conflict with a black witch/mage/sorcerer/werewolf/demon/warlock/darkelf/insert-evil-here! Maybe I am a werewolf and I'm trying to cope with the inherent conflict in my life! Maybe my best friend really can conjure fireballs and won't tell me how!"

I'll tell you how. I was you. I was a crazy teen. Like many of you, I had a broken family, I didn't get the attention I wanted, I had a hard life and wanted an escape, and so I fantasized. Like you, I got my hands on a book 'about magicK' and met a couple of other preteens who were into magicK as well, and before you knew it we were having disco parties on the astral plane and discussing the adventures we had in our past lives. I had a friend who was a werewolf, who insisted that spending the night on a full moon was too dangerous, a friend who was a vampire, who insisted that vampires being unable to endure sunlight was a myth (they were however light sensitive, which is why she wore gaudy black sunglasses everywhere she went, inside or out). And me? Well I was the scion of an ancient order of protectors who were reincarnated over and over into the same role in order to safeguard the very consciousness of humanity. No no, I couldn't possibly get into the details, our lives are very secret, and anyone could be an enemy and NOT EVEN KNOW IT. Including you, my parents, my teachers, and anyone who suggested otherwise.

Like you, my parents didn't pay enough attention, and when they did it was mostly to disapprove of my choice of interests. Like you, all I had mostly were cheap books off the 'occult section' shelves at barnes and noble. Like you my friends reinforced my fantasies by pretending to believe in them as long as i pretended to believe in theirs. Unlike you, I didn't have a forum like this. Unlike you, I didn't stumble into a group of serious, mature occultists who could slap the sense into me. Instead, I had to just grow out of it. Let me tell you something, when you don't have a handful of mature adults who can just forgive you your senseless drama and say "Look, you know your faking it, just let it go and we can move forward, and I won't judge you for it," getting over that crap can take a long time, and be a painful process. Oh I know, I know very well. It becomes painful to let it go. After all, this is who you are, according to your own design. This is literally the freedom to be who you want to be, regardless that you have overshadowed who you really are completely.

Those of you who've been here long enough know this isn't the first time I've had to rant like this. But, we get a few dozen new members every week and the Gods know, we get a regular stream of ridiculous posts in kind. So it can afford to be said again.

So, to those of you just getting here, drop it at the door. I'm going to be a lot more frank and a lot less patient about that from now on. Because I realized, when I thought about it for a while, that patience on that matter wouldn't have done me any good. If I'd had the right person come and slap me around a little, with no patience for my teenage angsty BS, who knows where I'd be now. As it is, I have seen, and felt, and been witness to, fantastic things that make my old teenage fantasies pale and withered in comparison. Because they were real, and I earned them, and they taught me something, made me more whole, rather than simply covering up the incomplete me that I was unsatisfied with. And I was impatient when I started, just like you are now, and I wanted the short path. But the short path turned out to be the long path in disguise.

To those of you who have already spread your angsty drama, yours is a more difficult bit. Now there's no guarantee that those of you that have already posted this nonsense will read this particular post - but if you do: just say it here and now - "I know that was BS, but I'm ready to let that stuff go, because I want something real." I can't speak for everyone here. But as for me, I will not hold it against you, I will not boot you off the forum and I won't let the other mods/admins boot you either - as for me, you get a clean slate. As for others, well, who knows. I'm known to be particularly patient.

There is also a chance you were redirected here from whatever BS post you made. If I don't hear from you - and I'll seek admin approval for this - I'll boot you myself. You're gonna have to learn the long and hard way. Because this is a forum for discussion, exchange, and learning, of experience, theory, belief, and interest, based on the real substance of human curiosity and need for growth. Not a place for you to find faceless people to join you in your narcissistic fantasy brigade. I'm tired of seeing trash fill up the pages of this forum, because this is a respectable place for honest inquiry.

peace

EDIT: PS I'm using Vagrants Post to add this PS...I support his assessment(s) and wish to Thank him for a nicely worded statement. Not wanting to 'mar' his post with another 'reply' I piggybacked (forgive me Vagrant). PAY ATTENTION!
-Bym, Admin


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Acid09
post Jan 13 2009, 07:39 PM
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I just had to throw in my lot in this topic. I'm like vagrant dreamer there in that I find myself amuzed at my own reaction to the tripe posted on this site. I'm not really mad or upset at all. And there is no one person I'm aiming this at. However, I don't think this site is "just" a forum. I've put in too much time and contribution to think of this place as just another web site. Its a place where I can come and learn and teach at the same time.

Lately I have avoided this site, mostly because of my own life, but partially because there were simply fewer and fewer topics I felt I could contribute to. To me, when people throw in their teenage fantacy garbage it smears this site and real occultist cannot take it, or the serious members, seriously. It makes us look bad and it makes the mission of this site impossible. It also furthers misconception and myth about real occult studies and practices. If you honestly believe your own delusions, you may want to step back from yourself for a minute and ask yourself if you are truly sane. If the answer is not conclusive or utterly undeniably sane, then you may want to consider getting professional help.

Now if you want to talk about using your plus one adamantine mace and how you can use it to smite a level 13 grasshopper demon, man whatever. But as a mod, I support vagrant on this and I think so does the rest of the staff and other serious members. If you post crap, we're going to come down on you. While I too consider myself patient, trust me when I say you'll vagrant dreamer to get on you, rather than me. I guess what it comes down to is think before you post your topics. Ask yourself basic questions like "does this seem at all rational" or "is there a logical way I can deal with this on my own". Troubleshoot your own questions and you might even answer them without boring the rest of us.

To be fair, I too was once a young preteen wannabe super, ninja, jedi master, sorceror gumba. I remember trying to life objects without touching them. I remember getting into "energy wars" with one of my buddies where we acted like we were actually hurling balls of energy at eachother. I could go on about the nonsense I engaged in. But there comes a time when you grow up and realize that stuff was just pretend. And that pretend stuff simply has no place on this site aside from personal reflection.


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valkyrie
post Jan 17 2009, 02:00 PM
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I think i will be brave and say a few things of my own. First of all, I am not sure that age has anything to do with it. That certainly diminishes the level of respectability some of the younger members of this site have earned. No. I don't consider myself one of them. I am not nearly skilled enough to speak for myself, but certainly for others there is a great deal of talent and level hardheadedness to be mentioned. And now to defend myself. I still find myself lapsing a lot of the time. Generally speaking, i admit that i have fed into the 'BS' that you referred to. For a while, I considered myself kindred, a sort of dog spirit from an older time. Even then i knew i was completely human. But now i have put it is my past. Still, i am very sensitive about that transition, and in some ways it was important to come to my own realization, and i was finally getting over it. I am sure that i am not alone in feelings.

So if you should unearth this generalized, humiliating fact, when policing others back to reality...just know that it does not encourage friendly cooperation and understanding, but the exact opposite. I am hurt by your post. I understand that the idea is a motion of "cruel to be kind" but its a little harsh for a rebuke. After all, you admitted it yourself. You were allowed to come to your own realization in your own time. It is not wrong that you want your forum to be clean of delusions; but really, isn't it all a matter of interpretation anyway? After all, my catholic grandparents think the idea of magic is a delusion.

I do not disagree with your desire to clear clutter out of the forum. It is good that you are drawing a line, and i suppose as the site's administrators you have a right to do just that. I just feel that your posts are grouping a lot of people together unfairly.

With that said, i am sorry for being 'one of those'.

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Vagrant Dreamer
post Jan 18 2009, 08:13 AM
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Practicus
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I sympathize, even empathize, with you about that sensitivity. The first time that I really decided I just didn't want to play pretend anymore, that it had just gotten out of hand, and I said as much to my friends, they stopped being my friends. It made me want to go back to it, and for years afterwards I was very sensitive to any mention of that aspect of my past, especially when I dropped everything but my magical study and practice. And I almost quit that because it was so associated with the BS. I had tied it all into the reason I had to 'learn' magick.

Some of it, I learned later, with a bit of education and a dash of experiential wisdom, was likely manifestations of other things that were valid spiritual aspects of my being. Among my little circle, I was a 'shifter' - which is kind of like a person with a half-animal soul; most self proclaimed shifters don't even have a good definition for it. They don't shift physically, although in their circles there is a 'legendary' physical shift story most people know from a friend of a friend, etc. I was a panther shifter.

Many years later, I began studying shamanism, and while I have since focused on a more eccelectic hermetic path, I learned about medicine animals, and then learned about invocation, and realized that shifting when it is reflective of something that's actually happening - I'd wager more than 2/3 of that population are just bi-polar or manic and interpret their periodic psychosis as this metaphysical specialness - when something is actually happening it could just be a natural inclination for invocation combined with a sympathy for the animal spirit in question. That I had, and do still have, panther medicine is beyond doubt in my mind; panther's lessons have always been my own, since I was a child. I declared myself a shifter before I was familiar with the nature of animal guides, etc., but on some level I knew what it was; consciously it became something else.

Now, other things did not reflect actual phenomenon - I was not being hunted by the antithesis of my private crusade of world-saving mages, I was not present at a coodinated astral attack on those same 'people', the list, is long.

What I'm saying by all of this is that its important to look at the material, and try to understand the substance. That process of reflection once initiated is an opportunity for growth and 'wisening' that can turn what will likely one day be an embarassing bit of backstory into an important experience that made you who you are today. That's all that we're trying to help this forum be a catalyst for - since we get a fair chunk of population engaged in these games. To me, while I also want this place to be a respectable forum for the discussion of all things spiritual or occult, that catalytic function is just as important, for the reasons I already mentioned.

And while I do wish that it wasn't hurtful to hear, understand that its going to be painful for anyone of any degree of 'in it' or 'past it' to hear it. It reminds we that went through that period how foolish we were, and calls into question whether we still are or not. But that's just an ego thing. It lessens the sting to simply say, "I was just a kid. Kids play pretend, and they can be crazy. Now I am an adult." I still play pretend, but I know it's pretend, and I make a distinction between it and my life path. Now we call it LARPing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

The problem is that we have three choices. We can ignore those people that come to the forum with their BS, which makes them feel unwelcome and maybe drives them off - or at worst, attracts only those people sypathetic to their BS who are going to play into it with their own, which creates a subdivision of utter BS in the forum itself; we can play into it ourselves, and give them the 'benefit of the doubt' with their obviously crazy stories, which encourages them almost as badly as the other option because some of us are adults and nothing validates like the support of adults, whether you're a child yourself or an adult; or we can call them out and give them the ultimatum "either get real or get out."

If you think about it, there really is only one logical option to take. It may ruffle some feathers, but in the long run it's the best thing to do, maybe the only thing we can do towards those ends. Anything we reach, we always reach on our own. Those who help us along are just catalysts, and there are those who are helped, but don't get there.

Thanks for having something to say here. If we all came to admit the ridiculousness of our past, maybe it would be easier for others to lay down the BS themselves.

peace


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Darkmage
post Jan 18 2009, 10:46 AM
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Hear, hear. *applauds*

I've seen way too much of this in the local New Age community too. It drives me up the wall. It's OK if that's what these people want to do on their own time, fine, I'm down with that. But when they'd get pissy because I didn't want to buy into it, well, I lost a lot of respect for them. These people weren't kids, either--their average age was probably about 55-60. They were old enough to know better. So it's one thing to do this sort of pretend stuff when you're kids. Doing stupid crap when you're in junior high or high school is how you learn NOT to do stupid crap when you get older. The thing that *really* got me about some of the locals was that it was also a way to push merchandise on people. Someone would say "I'm a great witch/occultist/etc. and my spells and/or the materials I sell you are the only ones that work." HA. Not cool. I'm not one for playing people to make a fast buck, it's probably why I never went into PR. But I digress...

Another thing that really gets me with some people around here is their inability to use google or the 'search' function at the top of the forum home page BEFORE they ask questions. Then they either post a silly question that could be solved with 30 seconds of typing, or worse yet, PM me with this question. I don't answer these PMs so I don't get many of them anymore, thank $deity. I'm more than willing to help people out IF and ONLY if they're willing to do their own homework and only ask when they get stuck.

Play with magic and it will often wind up playing with YOU. Take it seriously, think about it, don't take everything at face value, test everything, and you'll earn the respect of the other world. I've found this to be true.

My $3.

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This post has been edited by Darkmage: Jan 18 2009, 10:51 AM


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Vagrant Dreamer
post Jan 19 2009, 01:40 PM
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To those who find posts missing from this thread, I found it necessary to clean it up because a certain member needs to be erased from the forum, as he maintained an attitude that is unacceptable here, aside from this thread in others where such an attitude is not okay, as well as sidetracking this particular thread completely.

peace


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Xenomancer
post Jan 20 2009, 01:44 AM
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WHen I started my posts here, I was like that: Self-deluded. I had no mentor to rel;y on to help ground me and say, "Sonny-boy, you got everything wrong there. It's all a misconception." For a long time, I had no one to help sort out my experiences, and eventually accepted the illusions as real. But then, I grew more and more disenchanted with the lack of reward that these delusions had. I wanted more. I wanted tangible results. My former illusions never gave me any of that. But, the damage was done to my mind, and my thinking patterns altered for joining in these "top secret occult clubs" that market paranoia like Philip Morris does cigarettes.

With whatever last bit of actual enchantment I believed I had, I made a love potion ( this is probably the n'th time I have mentioned this story), imbibed it, and attracted a woman who was logical, down to earth, and patient enough to put up with my BS while she slowly worked to help sort out all my misconceptions.

Ever since, I have felt a cutoff from the divine. I fell into depression. Perhaps this connection was never there? Perhaps I never even really started a connecting process? Was all my experience for naught? No. I learned how to differentiate between the real metaphysics and the BS. I know I had actual experiences. Yes, Psi-balls are real. Yes, astral projection is real, albeit harder than diamonds for me to pull off. Yes, it IS possible to be yanked out of your body by an outside force. Yes, possession is possible. But does this make me special? No. It can happen to anyone. To everyone. The only thing that could make me special was the special attention I payed to the details. All this mystical rank and past life BS? Well, it makes my skin crawl knowing that I used to be like those idiots who played their stupid occult-games.

Perhaps this is my real source of disenchantment: Self-disgust. I never really learned to forgive myself for becoming one of "them." And by "them," I mean angsty teens that think it's the coolest thing to throw invisible fireballs at each other and act that they got hit and start psychosomaticising the pain to make it real.

If it wasn't for my girlfriend, I probably would have killed myself for the amount of self-loathing I had when I realized what a big mistake I made in my spiritual progress.

Cue the mods and friends of the SM community to say, "Xeno, you take yourself too seriously!"

-end of my confession and rant-

PS. Thank you for this post, Vagrant! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/00000002.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/respect.gif) Much love to ya. I related instantly when you came out and told me your story. Seems like I have a ways to go to finally find peace with myself over the mistakes I made. Your example makes things a little more optomistic for me. Thanks.


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-Never learn the Art of Sword before the Art of Dance. - Celtic Proverb
-Even with spiritual power, an unchecked ego will only seek to deify itself. - Frank MacEowen
-One cannot traverse waters without causing waves. - Xenomancer
-I find it interesting that we as scholars of metaphysics have no problem discussing the intricacies of the threads of reality, but when it comes to the things that really matter, we forget them. - Xenomancer
-This world is your home. We have a mix of everything here. If you want better, make better. There's no rule of going elsewhere for the tools. That's what magick is about. - Xenomancer

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Darkmage
post Jan 20 2009, 02:26 AM
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Ah, yes, but who learns from success? Xeno, I personally think you've come a hell of a long way and should be applauded for your insight and effort, as well as the rest of those who have told their stories. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Your post proves that, because you can clearly identify where you went wrong, what you learned by getting sidetracked, and how you corrected your errors. You will find peace with yourself, eventually. Keep working at it and keep an open mind.

I came into the occult from almost the completely opposite perspective. I was good at science when I was a kid--REALLY good--and so I was taught that the logical, materialistic approach was the only valid one in the world. If you couldn't measure it it didn't exist. Well, that outlook is fine when you're eight and you need a clear, concrete world where the choices are simple and you're kept safe from the really dangerous stuff, but as you get older and start learning more about the world, trusting only what you can see and touch is a very shallow way to look at the world. Add this to the fact I come from a family where Weird Shit Happens, mainly precognition and clairvoyance, and you've got an explosion waiting to happen. Fortunately I had a grandfather who was open to stuff like this and left plenty of copies of Fate magazine lying around when I visited on summer break. He also told me to take everything written there with a grain of salt because people lie to get attention. I didn't understand until I got older...

By the time I got to high school I had more of an open mind. I was burned out on science, though--in fact, I was burned out on school in general, bored out of my mind, and severely sick with asthma (as in should have not survived my teens) but at that time but I didn't know it. So, since my grades slipped, I got TOO much attention from the admins and the powers that were. That's not good either. By that time I was reading about the occult pretty extensively, but it was mainly stuff like Grillot de Givry, Colin Wilson, various books on Tarot (I started learning Tarot around age 11 or so), and pretty much what I could find in used bookstores for cheap and in the local library. I also hung out at a place in downtown called Alpha Bookshop. Dr. John Rodgers, his wife Joy, and the rest of the crew were always there to set me straight if I had a question. So I didn't have the opportunity, if you want to call it that, to get sucked into the BS. Anyways, I knew enough to NOT mention this to the guidance counselor when I got dragged in periodically for those dumbass parent-teacher conferences to try to find out why I was underachieving.

I knew a lot of the BS people, though, hung out with a lot of them too. I know exactly the 'disco parties on the astral plane' Vagrant so eloquently described, and while I heard my acquaintances talk about them, I felt a mixed reaction of 'wow, why can't I do that?' and 'WTF?' I dunno, maybe all that time spent studying the scientific method really did help. But I also wondered why I seemed to be the only one focused on getting concrete, physical results like a bigger allowance, more friends, etc. I didn't know enough at that time to figure out they didn't completely pass the smell test, but I did think the stuff they wanted seemed well, kind of silly. I dunno. IMO using a lighter is a great way to conjure fire from one's fingertips...maybe I just don't get it.

Anyways, that's my story, enough rambling from me.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

Edited for grammar/typos..

This post has been edited by Darkmage: Jan 20 2009, 02:31 AM


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As the water grinds the stone,
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As our ashes turn to dust,
We shine like stars...
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valkyrie
post Jan 20 2009, 12:52 PM
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well, i am greatly relieved that you are not angry with my post, vagrant. I have a difficult time being assertive, rather than confrontational. For what its worth, your reply was immensely appreciated. I do not feel hurt anymore. In fact, I might even feel ok about my mistakes. They don't seem so bad when put in perspective like this. Strong is the person who remains grounded in this type of environment...but overall, i think the strongest person is the one who went through the tunnel and saw a light at the end.

This post has been edited by valkyrie: Jan 20 2009, 12:53 PM

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Bb3
post Jan 22 2009, 04:47 AM
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It's important to remember for many people that being uncommon or even rare doesn't make you part of the extraordinary magical world. Being uncommon and rare is quite ordinary, I say this in mostly in reference to VD's comment about manic and bi-polars but not exclusively so. I think it should also be reiterated that everyone is welcomed to this forum, no matter how "offbeat" you are, it's moreso those who wish to continue on this path without a hint of change or learning. If that's your deal, as mentioned just go visit occult forums where I'm pretty sure at least 1/4 of the threads are related to uber greatness of the work and the fame it brings.

Personally I don't disbelieve most of what's brought before me, it's just a matter of changing the outlook, where I live I've met many, many psychics, and they ran the gamut from football players to everyday workers. Are they super special? No it's their detachment from such importance that make it easier to tap the well. The super special person who has been studying magic often suffers from an obsession and compulsion when they build the bridge so to speak. People actually whole heartedly dedicated to it face this challenge of compulsion even more greatly since the greater your ambition outside of the realm of acceptibility the greater the ego will attempt to thwart the realization of such a radical intent.

What I mean is when someone says there are space aliens sabotaging them or that they are an atlantean high priest reincarnated who am I to argue? Aliens exist, maybe just maybe they are out to get you, my question why haven't you gotten the good aliens to help free you from the bad ones? Or all aliens evil? I don't berudge those people who can channel the lifetime of others or who are perhaps in league with powerful spirit guides, or maybe, perhaps they really are who they say they are. Just ground and center, ground and center, Mathers Macgregor used to claim he was the reincarnation of Bonnie Prince Charles but I certainly wouldn't call him a fool or doubt any of his abilities.




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valkyrie
post Jan 22 2009, 02:05 PM
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"People actually whole heartedly dedicated to it face this challenge of compulsion even more greatly since the greater your ambition outside of the realm of acceptibility the greater the ego will attempt to thwart the realization of such a radical intent."

yes yes! thats what i thought it might be. i came to the same conclusion not too long ago, when i was contemplating the benefits and the cons of said "specialness". I especially like your use of the word "bridge".

but i have more suggestions:

i wasn't too quick to dismiss it as an obstacle to our spiritual graduation alone; i understand that without an anchor to weigh yourself down, it is very easy to get lost. perhaps this is an anchor of sorts? not merely a coping mechanism, but also a mechanism to preserve one's self definition, in its most primitive form? For example, the sense of ego is greatly warped, and the brain compensates by searching for an archetype or image that it can latch onto, and what better form than what is already offered and supported by the occult community? it is served on a silver platter... its all quite sloppy actually, but VERY convenient.

but how to go about evolving without tripping over these little pieces of vanity and false ego? It is an arduous process picking them off, and then growing new ones only to shed them once again. Convenience is not good enough.

and also, another thing to consider is this: after feeding the beast for so long...can it feed itself? Perhaps we have so much trouble with these false egos because, not only do we grow comfortable with and attached to them...but some of us may rewire our systems to accommodate said constructs. It is not just a matter of brainwashing or autosuggestion...it is an addiction. Once an addict, always an addict. ??? with this is mind, this is an evil. It allows for psychic vulnerability and opens the door to fear and outside persuasion. It leads to mental disorder, and even to physical ailment (perhaps the least is psychosomatic).

anyway. it is all relative. i suppose that it is not just one thing. though, Bb3, i think your idea is the most credible. It fits. it fits so well i had to add my bit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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Bb3
post Feb 3 2009, 04:51 AM
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I'm replying to Valkyrie's post here:

http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=6600


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Wiggs1992
post Mar 14 2009, 11:19 AM
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While reading this post, I felt hurt just like you were valkyrie.. But my reason is a little different. I respect all the mods and admins on this site and even look up to them so please don't get me wrong.. I agree with you guys when you say peoples ego's are way too high sometimes. Without even trying, they believe they are the chosen ones who requires no effort at all. I find those posts amusing as well.

What made me want to post were the hypocritical statements I found.

"I was just a kid. Kids play pretend, and they can be crazy. Now I am an adult."
"either get real or get out."
"They were old enough to know better."
"No. I learned how to differentiate between the real metaphysics and the BS."

What made them hypocritical to me was how I've been reading on this forum that you are supposed to "go at it like a kid". Play around with it.

People have been called crazy for practicing magick, to the majorities perspective its all "devil worshipping" and "evil".. To them it doesn't exist, its crazy people pretending they are sorcerers. They drew a line between whats real and what is not. Now people on this forum are doing the exact same thing.

That's what started to get at me..

People with a dream are the same people who give it all they have to reach their goal. Hard work and perseverance bring them there.

I don't believe that there are "special people" who are better than everyone else. Everyone has the same ability to reach a goal. Those who try and don't give up get there.

If you set a limit you will never pass it.

What I got from this thread were:
people annoyed by high ego's, understood.
people selling themselves short, why?

Maybe I don't understand, I'm just some crazy kid who has yet to learn.
If I didn't understand thoroughly what was discussed, forgive me.

This post has been edited by Wiggs1992: Mar 14 2009, 11:24 AM


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ron stafford
post Mar 14 2009, 01:08 PM
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Well done 1992. Aspire,Stand Tall and Grow ,but you are in Fight Club and we all need to blow off steam now and again.If not here, were?

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Vagrant Dreamer
post Mar 14 2009, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE(Wiggs1992 @ Mar 14 2009, 01:19 PM) *

What made me want to post were the hypocritical statements I found.

"I was just a kid. Kids play pretend, and they can be crazy. Now I am an adult."
"either get real or get out."
"They were old enough to know better."
"No. I learned how to differentiate between the real metaphysics and the BS."

What made them hypocritical to me was how I've been reading on this forum that you are supposed to "go at it like a kid". Play around with it.


Looking at the world with the innocence of a child means to look at it without preconceived notions, without conditioning. Play means to enjoy what you are doing, laugh as you learn, maintain the innocence you began with as you do so. "Go at it" with enthusiasm, excitement, ardor, love, and joy.

This is different than living a fantasy, deluding oneself into believing one has already attained, rather than finding joy in attainment and growth. You can hang out with your friends all proclaiming yourselves and one another all powerful magicians reincarnated to save the world, and talk about your past lives over a soda like you just walked into this one on a whim, but that doesn't get you anywhere, doesn't teach you anything, and furthers the delusion that got you to that point in the first place. You can dress up in gothic attire, wear eye liner, and call yourself a vampire, but unless you drink blood and derive some nutrition from it to the exclusion of all other foods, you are not a vampire.

I'm not talking about dreamers who imagine a different kind of reality, who try to think in more than three dimensions, or who postulate the endless possibilities of creation with a sense of imagination and open mindedness - those people want to grasp something higher, and are trying to find it. I'm talking about people who act like they have grasped a hidden world when they know that they haven't. Playing pretend means you know that you're playing pretend. The difference between just 'playing' and what we're talking about here is that these people are playing in order to get attention, become part of a crowd - 'standing out and being different' in order to fit in with the 'cool kids' just like in grade school, it's no different. I'm not saying we're the cool kids, I'm saying pretending to be an advanced occultist in order to get attention and make oneself 'special' is the same thing. It's about esteem.

QUOTE

People have been called crazy for practicing magick, to the majorities perspective its all "devil worshipping" and "evil".. To them it doesn't exist, its crazy people pretending they are sorcerers. They drew a line between whats real and what is not. Now people on this forum are doing the exact same thing.


People have been called crazy for doing everything. We are not drawing the same line here - this is not about what is real and what isn't, its about honesty; with both oneself and the community, and the earnest desire for growth and realization, rather than the mockery of those things that is made when one presents themselves in the way that many who've passed through here have done so.

QUOTE

If you set a limit you will never pass it.


It may not be necessary to reiterate at this point, but we're not talking about limitations.

QUOTE

people selling themselves short, why?


Because every individual has such vast potential, but in order to reach that potential you have to recognize and accept where you are, and act on that beginning stage in earnest. By 'skipping ahead', or trying to - proclaiming oneself the master of demons and elements, grand high poobah of this or that, ancient vampire prince, secret fairy princess, etc., in order to gather followers or to fit into a group that has these same delusions (and really, they're not even delusions as that implies a believe - a less kind word would simply be 'lies') and feel special, unique, but understood and empathized with at the same time - these people are selling themselves short because doing that overshadows the real potential, takes their own attention away from what they have already in order to invest precious time into a fake persona, a fake life, one which they usually don't even believe in themselves. You have to recognize, accept, and grow into your potential. Just fantasizing doesn't bring you any closer to that realization, except possibly to one day show you the true nature of your own ignorance.

I can't say I'm necessarily sorry that you were hurt by this thread, but I do hope that you understand better now what we mean in talking about these individuals, and what we want to accomplish by establishing this thread in the first place. Really examine your own life, your opinions, beliefs, your past, your experiences, your perspective on reality - how much of it do you believe, and how much do you force yourself to believe because you hope it can be true? How much is based on your experiences, your senses (even the non-physical ones), even the tiny spark of simple knowing and surety at the core of your being? That's what we're asking for here - just be honest, even if honest is "I don't know yet." Even if honest is "I have no idea who I really am." Or "I just feel different, but don't we all?" If it felt like a personal attack, you should examine the reason why it struck you so personally. That's why I posted this thread in the first place.

Open minded is not the same thing as gullible or stupid. We had a member post that they were receiving special incantations and ritual instructions from demons in order to open a gateway to hell, release the army of lucifer, and bring about the end of the world. He wanted to know if anyone was on board with him. Would you take the next thing he told you seriously?

peace


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Wiggs1992
post Mar 14 2009, 04:34 PM
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I think I understand better now, sorry for the misinterpretation.
Maybe now I won't have the gods smite you since I am their king after all.

Kidding (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)



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esoterica
post Mar 15 2009, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE
This is different than living a fantasy, deluding oneself into believing one has already attained, rather than finding joy in attainment and growth. You can hang out with your friends all proclaiming yourselves and one another all powerful magicians reincarnated to save the world, and talk about your past lives over a soda like you just walked into this one on a whim, but that doesn't get you anywhere, doesn't teach you anything, and furthers the delusion that got you to that point in the first place. You can dress up in gothic attire, wear eye liner, and call yourself a vampire, but unless you drink blood and derive some nutrition from it to the exclusion of all other foods, you are not a vampire.

I'm not talking about dreamers who imagine a different kind of reality, who try to think in more than three dimensions, or who postulate the endless possibilities of creation with a sense of imagination and open mindedness - those people want to grasp something higher, and are trying to find it. I'm talking about people who act like they have grasped a hidden world when they know that they haven't. Playing pretend means you know that you're playing pretend. The difference between just 'playing' and what we're talking about here is that these people are playing in order to get attention, become part of a crowd - 'standing out and being different' in order to fit in with the 'cool kids' just like in grade school, it's no different. I'm not saying we're the cool kids, I'm saying pretending to be an advanced occultist in order to get attention and make oneself 'special' is the same thing. It's about esteem.

there is nothing more desperate than the physical world, with everything trying so hard to prove that it exists

i chose early to walk away from the physical world, trailing behind and above my physical body, having conversation with the inhabitants of the sunder realm instead of the world of my body

i used to believe that those chasing supremacy within the physical world were pathetic, but now i just don't care

i am limited to non-physical existence, as to re-inhabit my hollow body, even for a single moment, is to become acutely aware of the aching pain of physical existence, and the distinct separation from my god and my friends

i walk other worlds than this particular one, and carry out the mission my true self knows

i am told that most could not handle walking such a path without eventually going insane

perhaps i am, then...

i used to be human, to think as a physical being, and to wish for a better life, but no more

i used to be a vampire, feasting on the unprotected souls of the undeveloped human cattle, but now, as i evolve further and further from this world, feeding on those who are so stupid as to not even try to evolve, has begun to turn my stomach

the knowledge that my human body carries calls it 'dissociation', but i call it the awareness of my 'true self', and it is a wonderful thing

only those totally dissatisfied with the current state of their human existence should even contemplate moving beyond it

no kids, no life, no desires and no body

this is the true destination of the occult-minded, to go beyond the normal, safe, physical world, and those that claim to be doing advanced stuff without having the problems associated with doing advanced stuff, are just not worth my thought energy

i am, substantially, a ghost, and a ghost doesn't care who's who in the magical world

es

This post has been edited by esoterica: Mar 15 2009, 12:33 PM


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Acid09
post Apr 6 2009, 08:24 PM
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Although this thread is bit dated and I kind of forgot about it, some new thoughts came to mind reading through it. First off:

@ Valkyrie: You most certainly were never anyone I personally thought of as a fluffy new age teenager who has no business on this site. You have contributed a ton of knowledge and asked very real and legitimate questions. Plus I've always enjoyed interpreting your dreams when you post them from time to time. So I appologize if something I said gave you the wrong impression.

@ Wiggs1992: I personally have no problems with you either (you'd hear about it if I did (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angel.gif) ). Certainly it is important that people try to stay in touch with their inner child and embrace that concept of the innocent learner who is just getting his feet wet and who is most likely going to make mistakes as part of the learning process. Every occultist, whether they are members of an order or not starts off as an "initiate" or "novice". In that way we all have to learn to fly on our own or own way even if our teacher is telling us to do it another way. Its how people learn.

But for example awhile back we had a topic about willingly induced schizophrenia for occult purposes - fine thread by the way. Nothing wrong with it, some valid points were made. But being a psychologist and knowing a thing or two about schizophrenia, I felt that it was important to set the record straight so to speak. Then another member comes in saying that they actually did willingly induce schizophrenia, I pointed out that maybe they induced something else and, in short, they got butt hurt about it and acted like a little kid and threw a hissy fit over my disagreement. Another example we had even further back was some guy who posted some kind of rant and I don't even remember what it was about, it was just a waste of people's time. Then somewhere between those two threads we had a member who asked questions that made red flags go off in my mind that he was either jerking us around, or genuinely mentally unstable. I had to actually express my concern with the site's staff and ask that no one contribute to that person's games or possible delusions.

With all that said, I think I need to correct myself from my original post to this. I think I made the impression that we were going to come down on younger members who may just be misguided or misinformed. Age in and of itself is not what I was aiming at (I don't think Vagrant Dreamer was going that direction either). A 10 year old can have a mature out look on the occult.

My main concern was more about bloated egos, nonsense, spell begging, rhetorical questions that have already been asked a dozen times, one liners and fluff. Age, passion or creed has nothing to do with it. But we're not a fan site for Charmed, Buffy, Angel or any other TV show or movie and the stuff in those shows (however entertaining) does not reflect an accurate view of the occult. And bringing that fluffy stuff here as though it were real or posting rants, diatribes or asking for a spell to fly or learn telekinesis or what ever else that is just crap hurts this site's credibility. At any rate, fortunately the vast majority of members on this site are all awesome! And I'm glad that all you guys are apart of this place. The regular members here make this site truly an enriched and interesting place that I will probably continue to visit until is no longer around. Although I rarely ask questions, I think I have learned more from this site than I have actually shared.



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esoterica
post Apr 7 2009, 07:59 AM
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QUOTE
My main concern was more about bloated egos, nonsense, spell begging, rhetorical questions that have already been asked a dozen times, one liners and fluff. Age, passion or creed has nothing to do with it. But we're not a fan site for Charmed, Buffy, Angel or any other TV show or movie and the stuff in those shows (however entertaining) does not reflect an accurate view of the occult. And bringing that fluffy stuff here as though it were real or posting rants, diatribes or asking for a spell to fly or learn telekinesis or what ever else that is just crap hurts this site's credibility.

btdt, sosdd, bwein, etc - at least this place knows that more than the physical world exists

i am indeed(probably) the most 'genuinely mentally unstable' one here as i hate the physical world with a burning passion that drives me everyday to live at least partially in the low-astral, disregarding the physical to the point of not caring the tiniest of jots about humans

if i saw you drowning, i would save you first with my mind before resorting to the gross useless body, but if you drowned it wouldn't affect much - if some relative that i loved drowned, it wouldn't matter that much either - i remember looking at my father;s body laying in his casket, and then looking at him standing next to it, younger and stronger and happy for once - suffering is for idiots - human bodies are cattle for souls

my magical methods are shit, my results are questionable, and my agenda of "know thy eternal self" through self-hypgnosis and 'a process akin to zen awakening' is just stupid

everybody else is smarter than me and has normal magical experiences, but i take no notice of these faults in me and blunder on, going places where both angels and demons avoid cause they're not stupid

i have no physical desires and would stay inside in quiet meditation rather than go anywhere or do anything (even sex, unless it is with my sukkubus or a godform) - nothing mundane or worldly means anything, and the visions i have of what the physical world is like, don't exist and the world is all mixed up and wrong - i refuse to ground out the energy and vibration and become human again, preferring to stay in the real reality of the nothingness of the void if necessary than face this supposed 'reality'

my internal image of myself is rock-solid , but it is not at all the one i see when i look in the mirror (not even close!)

i write stupid stories that nobody reads and i think that eternal love is wonderful, but i would suck out your soul (or magical ability) in a heartbeat

i reference ideas in freaking harry potter to communicate an idea, like a dibbuk or a horcrux, and i use made-up words like claudation (from 'so you want to be a wizard', where a huge thing as big as a sun could introduce some tiny bit of himself into this dimensional reality, holding the rest of himself separate)

i re-edit posts 40+ times, getting the words just right, but intentionally leaving one thing wrong so the pneuma can get out, and i use a bunch of foreign words in regular conversation cause they convey the proper meaning, and even though words suck to communicate ideas, i rant on and on and on and on, looking for the end

and oh yeah, i have a wall sculpture that i actually think produces paper currency every so often, but i worry about where they come from sometimes (did some little old lady that is dirt poor and needed it desperately for meds and food lose it, for it to appear there?)

i have set the standard for stupid posts, and if the ones that acid refers to, go beyond that low mark, then they should expect bricks and rotten tomatoes

This post has been edited by esoterica: Apr 7 2009, 08:48 AM


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Darkmage
post Apr 7 2009, 08:20 AM
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That wall sculpture sounds interesting. Where can I get one of those? I can always use some extra cash. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/evilB.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think the core issue is that the occult, indeed, any form of religion, tends to attract those 'fringe' elements in society. How many people are in the psych ward screaming that they've got a direct line to God, or they're Jesus, or some other damned thing? I'd venture quite a few. Anything that offers power is naturally going to attract unsavoury types. The trick is to smell their BS and rake them out before they do any damage.


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We shine like stars...
--Covenant, "Bullet"

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esoterica
post Apr 7 2009, 08:54 AM
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i hate money and value beyond that of a need, but i must continue to exist because i stupidly volunteered to incarnate here, so i have to have some (mainly for taxes) - i made the sculpture with my hands, specific to the task, infusing it with my will and intent, then believed it would work, period - no peeking to see if it did work, period - i gave a 'blessed book' to a lady once who really needed it, that would produce money every month or so, only to catch her going through it, holding it upside down and shaking it, ruining the spell - i still worry about where the bills come from and if i am generating bad karma

hmmmm if someone did have a direct line to god, would they be screaming in the psych ward? - interesting point!

This post has been edited by esoterica: Apr 7 2009, 09:03 AM


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al_zaine
post Apr 7 2009, 09:31 AM
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"So you think you're special"?.......
Yes.
I am special. I'm no more special than you, no less even, but nonetheless special. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)
I don't resort to fiction to sustain my fantasies but i'm not denying that I fantasize. I live to dream, and dream of living.
When I make posts I, like esoterica will go over my post and edit it so its perfect but that doesn't really effect the content of the post/thread. Most of mine have been lacking in any form of magick and I have come to worry if this forum is the right place for me. Just like acid, I find that when I check out the latest topics that most I am uninterested in posting in, but maybe I'm just being ignorant and should give them the benefit of the doubt. (thats what the polite me says)
In truth I won't read them because I see them as a waste of time(not the polite me)
Maybe mine are viewed in the same light, because of their lack of occult/magickal hogwash but I can't write about what I haven't experienced or find difficult believing.
Anyway if you're one of those people that fool about with magick as though a game be warned that you could hurt yourself..... and for what? entertainment>?
peace
al

P.S.
I just want to add that magickal experiences do happen to me but they are very subtle and happen swiftly that I find it hard to comprehend what has actually transpired for me to write about them.

This post has been edited by al_zaine: Apr 7 2009, 09:38 AM

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Mchawi
post Apr 7 2009, 11:50 AM
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Ahhhh... remember messing with energy when I was a kid, actually learnt a thing or two.

Everyone starts somewhere and with Harry Potter, Buffy the vampire slayer and a whole host of, ''whisperer'' type programs featuring alongside Haunted house on Living.Tv who could blame them? Their imagination and want of attention is natural, par it alongside the woes of puberty, horomones inducing thoughts on how the Matrix is real and superhuman like powers are actually attainable you can kind of expect what you get. Granted things can become dangerous when those fantasies are met with the resources to further their enactment but I won't post the emails I wrote to Tantric sites when I was a kid put it that way. Still belive its possible to energy enough to have ''sex'' with a woman from across the room, completely feasable .lol. Whats new is acess to the net otherwise kids will always be a nusence, the pitch of their voices is stringed to resonate with adults and to streach it out they shout and talk incessantly.

Personally quite new to the site although I've known of it for some time now, the only issue I have with it is that it dosen't move too well and yeah, it lacks a tad on the intellectual side where Abrahadabra.com has too much of an emphasis on it perhaps, have thought that grade level plays a part in the lack of content on some forums, people not wanting to expound upon things for that reason but there you go. Obviously up to the mods to move the werewolves and 'nth degree alien hierophants on if they see it as a threat to the sites credibility.

Oh yeah... OccultForums.com has gone down btw, users looking for somewhere new to post I guess, something had been going on between them and some hacker for quite a while. Shame really, gave me my first introduction to the occult alongside Chaosmagick.com, still miss that site.

QUOTE
And me? Well I was the scion of an ancient order of protectors who were reincarnated over and over into the same role in order to safeguard the very consciousness of humanity


Guardian against the fool and folly of the pre pubesant? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Peace
.M.

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esoterica
post Apr 7 2009, 12:31 PM
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and a big hearty welcome to everybody from OF - been there done that, ya!

pre- and post-hack - data is life

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Acid09
post Apr 8 2009, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE
i have set the standard for stupid posts, and if the ones that acid refers to, go beyond that low mark, then they should expect bricks and rotten tomatoes


Trust me Es, if I thought your contributions to this site were shit, you'd know about it. While I agree you certainly are the most eccentric I think you have also made some of the biggest contributions. You've also had one of the longest lasting active accounts on this site with no warnings and only good things on your reputation. You have demonstrated a deep level of understanding of witchcraft and magick. Sure, maybe the methods of your madness are not mainstream. But I enjoy reading what you post. I just don't want you to think I was making any comment about you personally. If I had a problem with any member specifically I would deal with it with them and not just whine like some spoiled college brat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

Also its not like this site is going down the crapper or anything. Most of the people I had to moderate are few and far between. But then again it seems like someone else usually gets to them first. And I edit my posts endless times too ES, just don't be so hard on yourself.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Apr 8 2009, 07:54 PM


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esoterica
post Apr 9 2009, 07:34 AM
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thanks, acid - i feel all warm and squishy

dammit - i've go to go to hell (or at least the place i call hell) - my feelings say go, so i go - see you all in a few days


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valkyrie
post Apr 9 2009, 09:45 PM
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ah well garsh! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush2.gif) don't i feel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/face08.gif) embarrassed. yes possibly...i overreacted then...but now i have no problem with it what so ever. so don't worry acid...to me, you are the same lovable caustic chemical you've always been. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/respect.gif) : keep up the good work! -valkyrie

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Ankhhape
post Apr 10 2009, 06:37 PM
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Just my two cents worth on this thread:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Originating as a child who's infantile sexual urges become raised to unnacceptable levels, their ego defenses would reguluarly come into play and prevent the unconscious mind from becoming aware of these dangerous impulses.
When the child cannot experience adequate mirroring (the seeking of self objects that confirm and admire the child thus nourishing their famished self) its infantile grandiosity cannot be transformed into a mature psychological structure identified by its more realistic sense of self esteem.
These Narcissistic wounds lead to repressed wishes, anti-social impulses, morally questionable motives and fantasies of grandiose nature.
The vampire image serves as a scapegoat as it allows us to disown the negative aspects of our personalities. This in turn becomes Narcissistic rage and one seeks the utter destruction of others.
The vampire within ourselves projects its image onto others thereby justifying its own predatory intentions.

. . . . Carl Jung the Mega-Upir




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em kheperu en Khepri kheper em Sep Tepy

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valkyrie
post Apr 10 2009, 10:15 PM
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well actually its funny that you should mention 'personality disorders' because i was just having a conversation with someone about the high level of seemingly dissociated/detached personalities that make up a large percentage of the occult community. i was wondering, on a similar note, if it didn't have to do with reactive attachment disorder or some other childhood development issue. nevertheless, when i tried to bring it up on the web somewhere else, i was instantly shot down and ridiculed. the only reason i feel this is easily dismissed is because there is a ready excuse already on the table; one that is far more pleasing and comfortable to accept: that instead of being unhealthy or instead of having abnormal thoughts...you are special and talented...and you should hone your skill and recruit others to do the same. The new age community, for all the benefits and advantages and for all the spirituality and knowledge it presents, also offers up convenient fantastical scenarios and surrealism and existential fodder (to later become misanthropy) for the unhealthy mind to latch upon. Hell, a person would rather be possessed than be diagnosed with bipolar or borderline personality disorder...or far worse, gasp...peter pan complex. lol. that is to say, there are plenty of legitimate people in the community who are serious about their spirituality...and plenty of mentally ill who are extremely spiritual and gifted as well...but faith becomes a serious handicap when a person's self image and understanding becomes reliant on internet forums and magical grimoires. to me, i don't know...it would lose its point if i defaulted to an easy image of myself or the world around me. only i firmly believe that the magic starts with myself and stretches outward. however, if i felt remotely confused with my reality or worried about my sanity...why would i feel obligated to surf the net for an explanation as a means of validation? you tell me which is more reliable; a professional human being who is ready to listen to your concerns and work with you to solve the riddle...or the 'dear abby' of a half dragon half werewolf and mostly S.M. community? (*chuckles* to myself quietly)

just for the record...i do NOT feel this way about sacred magick forums. lets just say i was shopping around for a while before i found you guys. lol anyway...there you go, a complete 180 from where i stood before. (don't you just LOVE the devil's advocate?)

This post has been edited by valkyrie: Apr 10 2009, 10:19 PM

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esoterica
post Apr 11 2009, 07:37 AM
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QUOTE
Originating as a child who's infantile sexual urges become raised to unnacceptable levels, their ego defenses would reguluarly come into play and prevent the unconscious mind from becoming aware of these dangerous impulses.
When the child cannot experience adequate mirroring (the seeking of self objects that confirm and admire the child thus nourishing their famished self) its infantile grandiosity cannot be transformed into a mature psychological structure identified by its more realistic sense of self esteem.

oh gak! how freudian! - (ruby 2, feedback episode: professor teru in the depths of 'the medium': "the wordburger looks like me! - everything looks like me!)

with the passing of the ego, there comes the pride of the ego's passing, and with the passing of pride, there also passes the ego

which is why they say the first sacrifice to your god(dess,form) should be your pride (before it gets in the way)

"His pride was what he was, he wanted everyone to be proud, and even a little afraid, of him,
and his belief in himself was what he was looking to build up, just like they said in school for
him to always do." - stephano.pdf

it is required for the vamp to be a narcissist? or just amoral? is amorality always narcissistic? interesting, thanks!

QUOTE
the high level of seemingly dissociated/detached personalities that make up a large percentage of the occult community

indeed - but it comes with the territory of going beyond the human - and to take it to the extreme means dehumanizing and amorality, not narcissism, for the narcissist requires a subtle humanness for humanity's adoration (or terror) - a truly non-human god is xenophobic and not conducive to religion - the problem faced by occultists that succeed in becoming more than human, is losing their humanness - at least imo, for that is my main problem with having to remain incarnated here despite my repeated attempts at going further away from it (the silver cord truly binds) - thoughts?

peter pan complex? - had to look that one up lol - sounds like a deliberate human attempt to explain away the eternal soul, and deliberately forcing the children of god away from heaven by making them rational (for such irrationality is the kingdom of heaven) - science vs creation - black vs white - this vs that, whatever - to become more than human through occult practices of expanding the mind (via whatever method, including pharm) is to go beyond the human. and thus beyond these petty squabbles and into becoming like children, where one discovers the true reality is that there is no real reality, leaving the ego to fall screaming into the void

the land of make-believe is the gamourie that the dissolving ego creates as reality melts,, and it is a trap, populated not by happy gentle bunny people, however cute or odd looking, but a jealous trickster coyote people - there are no such thing as the happy gentle bunny people waiting breathlessly to take your hand in some gigantic show of glorious inter-species friendship, and lead you into never-never land, without an agenda

it could be said that my whole eternal mission has been to break open the head and cause dissociative disorders lol

This post has been edited by esoterica: Apr 11 2009, 08:57 AM


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