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 Creating An Entity
shadyelshafie
post Sep 9 2010, 03:18 AM
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Hello Everyone,
Wanted to ask and get some advice.
I;ve been reading couple of posts/replies in this section. And interested,
As i have some questions, is the entity a thoughtform ?
If not, How do both differ.
And what tools/items needed to create.
And what range of tasks can be set, and what are recommended ?

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Draw
post Sep 9 2010, 04:33 PM
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Depends what you mean by thought-form.
It could be said practically anything is a form of thought, i wouldn't though.
When i made one i made up the name 'astral construct' because i didn't know any other, it's very normal stuff an it goes by thousands of names an has been used by humans since we came to be.
The most popular names here are 'Egregor' or 'Servitor'.

To create one is very simple and you will find all the advice/procedures on this board.

Creating is easy, you could guess how to do it, mistakes however, are very common an very far reaching.

Here's a tip, follow the 8 step procedure, it's good advice
Here's another, these things are like spirits, an the functioning body of a spirit is fairly hard to create without the DNA of something, hair doesn't have DNA, take your pick.
use it like a base creature, don't trap existing spirit, just use the sample as a base for a new spirit to be created, after that it can be twisted into anything you desire.

a Chrysalis is a good one, personally i wouldn't use DNA of another person as they will be linked.

Don't make it do anything you wouldn't want it do yourself, it is both part of you an separate.

Unless you are very experienced, don't make it big, things need to eat an i dare say you probably aren't aware of the possibly delicate ecology of the astral realm

Best of luck.

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kaboom13
post Sep 9 2010, 09:15 PM
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Hey~

QUOTE
Is the entity a thoughtform ?


As the other guy stated, its really semantics. But, taking my own terms, I'd say that a thoughtform is an extension of an entity. Entities are sentient, and have minds of their own. Thought-forms have a more ambiguous sentience, often individual

QUOTE
And what tools/items needed to create.


Beyond stamina and being able astrally project, prudence. amazing amazing amounts of prudence. Also, being able to make multiple drafts of your constructs, aka killing them and redoing it over and again until its somewhat functional.

QUOTE
And what range of tasks can be set, and what are recommended ?


Make them as menial as possible. Do not depend on them. One thing I find incredibly silly is that most people seem to think that you can create functional imaginary friends and super soldiers. Its impossible to create an entity with 1. genuine sentience and 2. stronger than you. Its already ridiculously difficult to create something of 'equal' power as the creator.

In addition, they're really just 'programmed' additional spiritual limbs, don't count on them to do things you wouldn't do yourself.

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Draw
post Sep 13 2010, 05:42 AM
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QUOTE(kaboom13 @ Sep 10 2010, 04:15 AM) *


Beyond stamina and being able astrally project, prudence. amazing amazing amounts of prudence. Also, being able to make multiple drafts of your constructs, aka killing them and redoing it over and again until its somewhat functional.

I like the idea of natural selection, while you shouldnt create immortal beings, creating ones that have a pre-ordained death points just seems to bypass their right to strive for continued existence.
I understand its better an less cruel not to let 'mistakes' live a miserable life but i would prefer to let the good strong ones survive well past their expected DOD.
How long should an artificial entity exist? to let it be determined by any single thing would be wrong i feel.
To take that into account it would be prudent to include weakness's to maintain a balance;
can it be killed by anyone strong enough?
can it be eaten?
dose it's own strength automatically fade with time? - maybe a finite source of energy used for fix-ups.

Giving a creature challenges in this way could make it stronger rather than weaker as it's intellect would then have a chance to grow.
Actually that would only work if ether the intellect could commune with another like it and/or the intellect were to be transplanted into another 'astral body' after it's old one had died.
It's memory of it's previous life would then have to be fragmented so as to not diminish the drive for life over death.
In that way it can learn to avoid it's mistakes in its previous existence while still valuing it's current one over others it may have.

QUOTE

Make them as menial as possible. Do not depend on them. One thing I find incredibly silly is that most people seem to think that you can create functional imaginary friends and super soldiers. Its impossible to create an entity with 1. genuine sentience and 2. stronger than you. Its already ridiculously difficult to create something of 'equal' power as the creator.

I would disagree on a few points there, for one it depends on what you would call stronger, if a man makes a car that car is capable of many things a human alone isn't.
the versatility of a human is his primary strength so i like to think of Egregors as being stronger in different fields due to their entirely astral existence.
Second; sentience? what do you mean? because we are not just talking about entity's created according to this standard procedure, i put it to you that creating sentience is the ultimate goal of some types of magic, not easy achieved but not impossible.

QUOTE

In addition, they're really just 'programmed' additional spiritual limbs, don't count on them to do things you wouldn't do yourself.

I think that depends on how you see an make them, when they do things you wouldn't normally do you are only responsible for actualizing your will at the moment of creation,
the control as a creator simply fades as the entity absorbs experience and love from the universe it inhabits,
it is humbling an frightening to realize how important a single moment can be.
but it really depends on how you create them as to weather those actions are in direct alignment with your current will.

This post has been edited by Draw: Sep 13 2010, 05:49 AM

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kaboom13
post Sep 13 2010, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE
I like the idea of natural selection, while you shouldnt create immortal beings, creating ones that have a pre-ordained death points just seems to bypass their right to strive for continued existence.

They aren't inherently immortal. They rely on your existence to live, and regardless of the fuel source, if you kill the creator, the basic skeleton of the construct dies.

QUOTE
Actually that would only work if ether the intellect could commune with another like it and/or the intellect were to be transplanted into another 'astral body' after it's old one had died.


My problem isn't actually the structure of the actual entity, but the core, or mind of the entity. It can and will decay with extended time. If you can find any local constructs, try and see, its simply giving a demented brain a new body.

QUOTE
if a man makes a car that car is capable of many things a human alone isn't.


Could you give me examples of things your constructs have done? I'm curious

QUOTE
Second; sentience? what do you mean? because we are not just talking about entity's created according to this standard procedure, i put it to you that creating sentience is the ultimate goal of some types of magic, not easy achieved but not impossible.


I meant sentience in the sense of self, a mind of his own, with will and focus unaffected by the creator. What would you want with sentient entities? I find they're honestly a waste of time, I could just ask somebody for advice if I wanted a sentient mind.

On the thing of trying of creating sentience, I think there's a few problems. In order to create something, one must completely understand the components and nature of what they're aiming to create. Sentience is the axiom of man, its the essence of the ego, self. What is self? I would argue that nobody inherently knows the notion of self, and thus sentience completely. Anything less than that would be part-sentience, arguably nothing close to sentience.

QUOTE
I think that depends on how you see an make them, when they do things you wouldn't normally do you are only responsible for actualizing your will at the moment of creation,
the control as a creator simply fades as the entity absorbs experience and love from the universe it inhabits,
it is humbling an frightening to realize how important a single moment can be.
but it really depends on how you create them as to weather those actions are in direct alignment with your current will.


I've made sentients before, and frankly, they're irritating to manage. Example: create a construct based upon raw curiosity, then give it sentience and bury it in somebody as a hypothetical uterus. Rabid desire to live and endless creativity and curiosity rips through everything it can see or hear.

Wanna share examples of constructs you've worked on? We clearly come from totally different approaches with them.

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kaboom13
post Sep 13 2010, 10:29 AM
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Somehow it double posted

This post has been edited by kaboom13: Sep 13 2010, 10:30 AM

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Draw
post Sep 13 2010, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE(kaboom13 @ Sep 13 2010, 05:29 PM) *

They aren't inherently immortal. They rely on your existence to live, and regardless of the fuel source, if you kill the creator, the basic skeleton of the construct dies.

You don't think a construct can exist without a creator or other mind to perpetuate it?
Then that's quite a classical difference in views, on one hand you can assume that all these 'existential' beings we use are in our mortal minds being perpetuated by our ability's to communicate.
Then on the other hand if our own spirits are real then they by definition they continue to exist after death, if that's true then its true for the spirits for animals trees etc.. what are constructs made of?
Everything that exists will last forever, in what form who knows, maybe you could define life as the creation of something that won't last forever, but i'm certain that the stuff we make these lapses of immortality with will last a lot longer than we will or anything that we create.

QUOTE

My problem isn't actually the structure of the actual entity, but the core, or mind of the entity. It can and will decay with extended time. If you can find any local constructs, try and see, its simply giving a demented brain a new body.

Maybe offsetting the tendency for the mind to decay by giving it a body that will decay would keep the mind fresh (kind of pumping the polar defecate of the death to the 'immortal bit')
I'm just speculating, a lot of what I've made has lost their minds also.
QUOTE

Could you give me examples of things your constructs have done? I'm curious

Nothing big realy, colecting information, protection, experimental perspectives.
Things that i can't do all the time on my own.

QUOTE

I meant sentience in the sense of self, a mind of his own, with will and focus unaffected by the creator. What would you want with sentient entities? I find they're honestly a waste of time, I could just ask somebody for advice if I wanted a sentient mind.

Well good point, what use is a sentient mind? I'd say the first one would be its ability to get better with experience,
another would be that the conscious mind is arguably the most powerful thing in the universe!

Its not like sentient beings can't be manipulated, especially since your dictating what they are motivated to do with the programing of the astral body.
QUOTE


On the thing of trying of creating sentience, I think there's a few problems. In order to create something, one must completely understand the components and nature of what they're aiming to create. Sentience is the axiom of man, its the essence of the ego, self. What is self? I would argue that nobody inherently knows the notion of self, and thus sentience completely. Anything less than that would be part-sentience, arguably nothing close to sentience.

Well i understand the complexing nature of the question here, the quick answer is i don't know, the other one is thus, i don't know which leeds me to believe that my nature as a sentient being demands i don't understand the foundation of my being, only the reflections an shadows of my existence give me the idea that i exist.
I will probably realize how simple it is when i don't exist anymore; i rather like the idea of trying anyway.
Maybe its simply a case of trying and finding out, or making a home suitable for a mind or soul to inhabit. Like making a big pile of wood an sparking it up.
maybe it is that what is meant by sentience is if we feel its enough like us enough to be respected like us then it can be called sentient, man can be pompous like that.

QUOTE

I've made sentients before, and frankly, they're irritating to manage. Example: create a construct based upon raw curiosity, then give it sentience and bury it in somebody as a hypothetical uterus. Rabid desire to live and endless creativity and curiosity rips through everything it can see or hear.

Wanna share examples of constructs you've worked on? We clearly come from totally different approaches with them.

I'd love to! most have been bad experiences generally though.

A long time ago in a land far away i was completely out my mind in a most distressing place on a day to day basis, this one time though i was quite fucked on pills...
In my euphoria i decided to spend the night creating an astral construct using a 'dragon' as a base,
It was to feed off emotions but stay quite small, i called it 'reason' as it was meant to discern the reality of a situation.
How i did it was i gave my thoughts an anchor in the form of a small stone with a hole in, then i visually constructed the intention while in a trance, i gave it no real ceremony,
in fact i don't really remember a lot of it, only it was big an took a long time an a lot of theorizing beforehand.
It's been seen by people on a couple of occasions as a glowing white dragon scuttling across the ceiling, it's presence filled me an others around me with serious depression.
In many ways it's intention was successful, i did learn a lot at that period. In countless other-ways it was a complete disaster.
I wasn't in the right frame of mind.
I put the thing to sleep ages ago.

I don't think i've made one for years unless you consider magical items similar enough. i've been taking some time out to consider things.

this post took hours to write, way to much effort!

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Petrus
post Sep 15 2010, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE(kaboom13 @ Sep 14 2010, 02:29 AM) *

They aren't inherently immortal. They rely on your existence to live, and regardless of the fuel source, if you kill the creator, the basic skeleton of the construct dies.


Mine generally do not last more than a few months, even if I don't set a specific timeframe. I think they either dissipate, or get bored and leave. I'm cool with them leaving, because my paradigm includes multiple world theory; so I don't subscribe to the ceremonial idea that servitors, "don't fit," into reality and therefore have to be destroyed. To me, they can (but don't always) come from somewhere. My oldest one was made in late 2007, and is still around...but I am very fond of that one, and tell it so. When I lost its' material base after moving house, it brought it back to me in the new house, even though I've since lost it again, unfortunately. The servitor is still with me, though; its' base did not trap it.

This servitor actually came to me after a while, and requested that I banish it. I had made it too intelligent; it knew what it was, and that it could not progress past a certain level, and it did not want to continue to exist in that scenario. So I did banish it, but a while later I brought it back. After that I gave it to a new master temporarily, who powered it up a lot more, trained it, and was generally good to it. It appreciated me doing that a lot, I think...and so it is more or less as fond of me as I became of it.

QUOTE
My problem isn't actually the structure of the actual entity, but the core, or mind of the entity. It can and will decay with extended time. If you can find any local constructs, try and see, its simply giving a demented brain a new body.


I do not believe that entropy as such exists in astral space. There are a lot of other things which will simply take a servitor's energy if they can, but if you prevent that, a servitor will last as long as you want it to. They're like people, and they can be very temperamental in that sense, if you give them enough intelligence. If you want them to hang around, you have to feed them, you have to teach them things, and you have to establish a relationship with them, such that they actually end up liking you. A servitor who is obstinate or disloyal, and who does want to willingly obey you, is a servitor who is potentially dangerous, and who you do not want to have around. My servitors are always my friends; and if they are not, and have too bad an attitude to be controllable, then they get banished.

I also usually create humanoids, so they tend to need a lot of energy to maintain their form (due to parasites mainly, I think) and they also want me to go new places with them so that they can have new experiences, as well.

QUOTE
Could you give me examples of things your constructs have done? I'm curious


a} An Orc astral bodyguard servitor, modelled on my character in World of Warcraft. That is the one initially described above. Very effective for shredding/disrupting local entities which I want removed. Very loyal, as well.

b} A female Kitsune sex servitor, who operated via particularly vivid dreams, and on one occasion served as a proxy for very limited remote viewing.

c} A servitor modelled on the Joker from The Dark Knight, who was intended to persuade my brother to move out of my grandfather's house. Once he started getting more energy, though, he began to behave in unpredictable and frightening ways, and was banished.

d} A servitor modelled on a character from some fiction from the Internet, who didn't have a purpose as such, which wasn't a smart thing to do. Said character also started causing trouble, and I asked Archangel Michael to remove it, which he did.

e} A prototype sigil, for a swarm of self-replicating energy filtration nanites. These were non-sentient, and were designed to filter negative ambient energy within supermarkets to positive. I have found when I go into supermarkets that there is some type of mental scrambling field present, which disrupts my ability to maintain thought, and I know of someone else on a mailing list I am on, who complains of the same problem. This servitor removed the negative effect, and replaced it with noticeably positive energy. The cluster of servitors did not noticeably last for more than around three months however, despite having no fixed time frame placed on them.

QUOTE
I meant sentience in the sense of self, a mind of his own, with will and focus unaffected by the creator. What would you want with sentient entities? I find they're honestly a waste of time, I could just ask somebody for advice if I wanted a sentient mind.


My Orc is sentient. That was not entirely deliberate on my part, and it was not a particularly intelligent thing for me to do. She was very obstinate, emotionally unstable, and angry at first...but became controllable once re-summoned and suitably fed/empowered and trained. Servitors are a responsibility. They are living things, and must be regarded and cared for as such. If they are not, they can cause problems.

QUOTE
I've made sentients before, and frankly, they're irritating to manage. Example: create a construct based upon raw curiosity, then give it sentience and bury it in somebody as a hypothetical uterus. Rabid desire to live and endless creativity and curiosity rips through everything it can see or hear.


My Kitsune was also sentient, but with her I took considerable pains to create an extremely compassionate and positive personality, in order to avoid problems. The mistake I made with her, however, was hooking her into a virtually unlimited power source. If you do that, they will leave you, because they will no longer see a need for you, and will want independence, to evolve on their own.


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Darkmage
post Sep 15 2010, 02:00 PM
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Somewhat O/T, but regarding the negative energy in the supermarket: I've heard of the same thing. I haven't noticed it *unless* the store is crowded. Some say it's because markets usually use a lot of power for the A/C, freezers, etc., and therefore generate stray electrical fields, but I haven't noticed that. What I *have* noticed is that when a bunch of people are in one area for whatever reason the energies in that area usually wind up in the toilet fast. It might be the mob mentality, I dunno. Fortunately, I usually sleep during the day, so when I go out shopping or running errands, it's usually either early in the morning when places first open or later at night around closing time when things are usually pretty quiet.

If you're skeptical, try this: the Christmas shopping season is just around the corner. Try going into a shop at different times of the day and sensing the energies there. I always make sure I've got a shield up at minimum, and usually an amulet or two hidden on me, before I brave the crowds.

This post has been edited by Darkmage: Sep 15 2010, 02:01 PM


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Draw
post Sep 16 2010, 09:15 AM
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In my last post i think i wasn't very correct.

I've never had much problem with inducing longevity, but then its of a limited use to have when your still growing,
if they didn't die off then they would be useless in achieving sustained growth as a mage(or whatever).

When people experience their 'artificial beings' dieing or fading it just means that the forces present are good ones to make that decision for you.
your typical being has a 'static' nature to its command, for example;

look like this [djdfd]
spend a proportion of your time feeding off this [sdfnskdhfis]
spend a proportion of you time gathering information about this [cabbage farming]
assimulate imformation an coordinate communication an when im in receptive state [sdfhgngh] then send information.

This is a pretty simple minded servitor right?
Its just like a spell that's wrapped up with an image that should last a bit longer because it can sustain itself,
something like that can't last very long because whatever energy sustains it won't last for very long,
the reason for this is that energy is information, an old information won't do,
their might be an infinite amount of information on cabbage farming but their is next to none on the commands of the servitor i.e.
to truly last longer the servitor has to find information that will sustain the intent 'spend a proportion of your time feeding off this'.

Which is why the ones given a fair bit of creative capacity often leave an try an find the sustenance of someone in a similar place of need in the hope that the words of their creation will be said once again.
Hypothetically that is, i'm guessing a bit but that's why i would hold preferance for making things more autonomous with more in common with existing energys, because the common ground with other life sustains them.

I've often wondered about using a roll-playing game character sheet as base for an entity, i can see a lot of problems in it though.

Time an time again i find that whatever i create i become in some way, this can be bad an can be very good.

It's amazing what can live within the workings of a refrigeration, i've worked most my life in shopping centers, the atmosphere shifts an changes hour to hour it can be fun..

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Petrus
post Sep 17 2010, 04:04 AM
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QUOTE(Darkmage @ Sep 16 2010, 06:00 AM) *

Some say it's because markets usually use a lot of power for the A/C, freezers, etc., and therefore generate stray electrical fields, but I haven't noticed that. What I *have* noticed is that when a bunch of people are in one area for whatever reason the energies in that area usually wind up in the toilet fast. It might be the mob mentality, I dunno.


I am inclined to believe that it is because most people trap themselves in scenarios which they hate, Dark; and that because they don't claim personal responsibility, they assume that there is no way out of them. I go to one particular online forum which has some very vindictive, angry people at times. Some people are far too afraid of death, and don't realise that wasting their entire lives in one situation after another which makes them miserable, is literally worse for them than the risk they might face by getting out of said situation.

QUOTE
If you're skeptical, try this: the Christmas shopping season is just around the corner. Try going into a shop at different times of the day and sensing the energies there. I always make sure I've got a shield up at minimum, and usually an amulet or two hidden on me, before I brave the crowds.


The worst thing is the psyvamps, although in a way they're the most interesting. I had one woman sit next to me on a train once; she had a 12 or so year old daughter, who was one of the most visibly miserable human beings I've ever seen in my life. Within a few seconds of this woman sitting down next to me, I immediately started to feel this internal draw to the point where I nearly became unconscious, and also had some organ pain. I started doing the Qabbalistic Cross in order to gain enough energy to basically survive her feeding, but when I got to charging Geburah, she got up and left very quickly. I've made sure I sit alone in trains ever since, even if it means sitting on the floor.


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