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 Evocation For Non-christians, How do Pagans do it?
Petrus
post Jan 16 2008, 02:52 PM
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So I've recently been reading Summoning Spirits. It's an interesting book, but something that struck me is that the rituals in it are as Jewish as the proverbial Bar Mitzvah.

This begs a couple of questions.

1) How do people who adhere to non-Abrahamic religions perform evocations?
2) Are these rituals intended to imply that Judaism genuinely is "the truth," in a supreme or objective sense, to a greater degree than that of other religious systems?


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Vagrant Dreamer
post Jan 16 2008, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE(Petrus @ Jan 16 2008, 03:52 PM) *
So I've recently been reading Summoning Spirits. It's an interesting book, but something that struck me is that the rituals in it are as Jewish as the proverbial Bar Mitzvah.

This begs a couple of questions.

1) How do people who adhere to non-Abrahamic religions perform evocations?
2) Are these rituals intended to imply that Judaism genuinely is "the truth," in a supreme or objective sense, to a greater degree than that of other religious systems?


Well, there are more pagan ways to do evocation. If you want to work with grimoires, there are two points of view.

The first is that you must follow the grimoire to the letter, and more than that you must actually believe in what you're doing, therefore you have to make some kind of subconscious connection to the judaic and even catholic faiths.

That said, many practitioners believe that the spirits of the grimoires are objective spiritual entities who exist outside the physical planes. In this case, ultimately there is a formula that is used to summon them - and the differences between all of the grimoires suggests that there is not, really, only one way to do so.

So, I suggest looking into Hermetic Magick. Start at the root, with these books: Hermetic Magic and The Greek Magical Papyri.

A book that I also recently read, which turned out to be excellent although it is often, as far as my experience with it's 'followers' as it were, misinterpreted greatly, is here: Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation.

There are not many texts relating to pagan evocation, and many of the texts I have read that were more modern oriented turned out to be dead ends.

I think that building your own system of evocation requires a great deal of experience and knowledge, and of course the practice itself requires a great deal of dedication. The tendancy is to build a system which is expedient, simplistic, and quick - which evocation is not. It must be a formula which fully involves your consciousness, your being, it must exalt your mind and spirit, and make a connection with spiritual power that will allow for evocation to take place.

Also, there are two forms of evocation - physical evocation, which is concerned primarily with the manifestations of demonic entities and neutral, typically elemental, entities; and the evocation of intelligences. Physical evocation is for accomplishing material things, including in many cases the direct transmission of knowledge. Evoking intelligences does not require a physical manifestation - they can be communed with through some astral medium, such as a mirror or skrying bowl, or communed with directly if you have such a skill. Their purpose is to instruct or inform you, from my experience with them, which is personally my primary experience in evocation. While they can help you accomplish things as well, their purview is more along the lines of the necessary information to accomplish a goal, rather than doing it for you. Evoking angels is a similar thing, they will help you, instruct you, and bring higher currents of divine energy into your life, but they will not heed your beck and call. People may have differing views, ultimately much of it depends on your subconscious belief in what these various entities can do for you, because it is your consciousness they will use as a connection to this plane.

Also, while you may not agree with the religious doctrines of the Jewish and Catholic faiths, you do believe in divinity, yes? That there is ultimately a source from which all existence springs? Really consider your own basic beliefs, and then decide whether they are really so different from the beliefs of creation from these other points of view. Taking the dogma, the rituals of those religions aside. You don't have to be jewish or catholic to use the grimoires - but you do need to form a connection to those religions, and respect for them.

They don't imply that abrahamic are the supreme truth, but that the individuals that wrote them (they did not materialize from the source itself) followed them personally - and, given their practices, more than likely held a more mystical, non-mainstream view of them. Plus, as you may read in some of the books mentioned above, one of the reasons there is so much catholic imagery involved in the grimoires is because those that wrote them did so during a period where not being catholic was very dangerous. Many of the judaic grimoires more than likely did not survive that period intact, but some of them did.

peace


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MagicIsMight
post Jan 16 2008, 06:59 PM
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I suggest that you discover FIRST 'who' it is you are approaching in such work. It is the "God of the Grimoires" and is indeed one of the many facets to finding him. And yes, be careful with those who misinterpret Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation: these are New Agers. Know this: their explanations are like wheat which the wind blows away. Many times though, they are misinterpretations and THIS is the main difference--also, their ignorance comes from a lack of EXPERIENCE which is perfectly okay--they will learn--or won't. I have personally worked with someone from this forum and thankfully after much time, she came to the realization that she could properly evoke these beings using this way of approching God. You are not a 'quick fix' as it were, and if you think this is for you, then I'd happily answer any questions you may have. As Dr. John Dee said, "Divinity is as close to you as your hand and nearer than your breath." This is your starting point and we could always work with this belief system, but the rules are the rules and CANNOT be changed. Otherwise you will end up with MAJOR 'slingshot effects' and PARTIAL results. Try it for yourself. I am not wrong here. If the need should arise and you are SERIOUS about this, please contact me via the forum. I have dealt with individuals who were in your shoes from sacred-magick and they are now doing PHENOMENALLY well.

Mr. Curi

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Jan 16 2008, 07:00 PM


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Imperial Arts
post Jan 16 2008, 08:09 PM
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It is always amusing to see how people react when the discover that their search for the Ultimate Black Rituals of Demonology invariably entails calling upon God, angels, and even Jesus.

The theological background of the grimoires is one of the biggest stumbling-blocks for the would-be magician. Usually people find the names etc unacceptable and alter them, excise huge portions of the conjurations, and take out all reference to unwelcome mythological characters. The white robe becomes black, the sweet perfumes become charcoal briquettes and crack cocaine, and the magic circle becomes an imaginary formality. In short, the usual beginner will remove all the "magical" parts of the ritual and strip the whole thing down until it looks like something from a heavy metal album.

The person or people responsible for making the grimoires was (most likely) Jewish, maybe Christian or even Muslim. To these latter two, Jewish rituals are at least somewhat compatible. Now we have a wider field of comparative mythology, and a lot of imaginative scientific thought from which to work out the details of our magical systems, but for the past several thousand years, gods and spirits were about all they knew, and the God of Abraham was the one these writers knew best.

When you have the leverage to declare that all the gods of those other people must submit to service, lest you slay all their devotees and trample their shrines into dust, you can decide what names those gods must obey. Solomon, to whom most of these popular western rituals are attributed, supposedly had that sort of power and bound the spirits under the names of his own god. I am not familiar with the details of non-western evocations, but they do exist and you can probably find information as easily as you can find the Grimoire of Honorius.


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altpath
post Jan 16 2008, 08:24 PM
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Work with the grimoires as best as you can, as much as you can follow along without doing something too drastic to your beliefs (a vegetarian wouldn't be expected to sacrifice an animal like ) but change the god names to something you work with.

If you're not jewish, you're not expected to call on that god. Call on a god that you are devoted to or work with and is in agreement with being called on for evocations.

Mr. Curi, no offense, but the old school magicians were most likely church going devout catholics (or priests themselves). Naturally their conjurations worked for them.
It's unfair to say that everyone has to use those same conjurations just because it's in a book.

Summoning spirits is a decent book, but it's best you choose some method for yourself after plenty of conversations with other magicians and decide on what works for you to work with the spirits. Or ask the spirits themselves with a pendulum, or skry the answer.
At least summoning spirits explains how to skry and develop astral senses, that's useful info.

The other useful bit about the book is that you do not need to physically manifest spirits at all. It's not nearly as easy as most people make it out to be, and following a grimoire to the letter does not guarantee it either.


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Vagrant Dreamer
post Jan 16 2008, 09:33 PM
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Mr. Curi, Having read Lisiewiski's book, Ceremonial Magick etc., twice just recently - and I do not mean at leisure - it comes to my attention that there appears to be an aspect of his book that you are either ignoring, or are less concerned with given your own preference for the grimoires, and that is the process and application of Subjective Synthesis. Lisiewiski states implicitly in his book - and after having read through it, his website as well - that the practitioner may, and in fact ultimately must, develop his own magickal system that will work for him exclusively. Even in the use of the grammars of old system magic it isn't enough to simply follow the directions. Every tool, every verse, the place, purpose, and name of each spirit must be fully comprehended and grasped - this is according to his text specifically.

I was certain that no serious practitioner would make the sorts of claims that you suggested previously in other threads. While the grimoires offer a readily available method of evocation to physical manifestation, which is of course perfectly true, and while it is true that the heptameron is an excellent manual for the experienced beginner, that is, someone of modest means who is generally new to this particular field of magick, it takes no measure of interpretation to understand that the author himself understands that subjective synthesis is the key element to any magickal work.

This means, if you cannot accept the divinity of the sacred names of the abrahamic religions, if you cannot believe in that divinity, for whatever reason - and I do personally believe that those things can be viewed objectively, with no amount religious fervor, as vibratory formulas specific to no particular faith in and of themselves - and if your mind cannot be exalted by invoking the names of the Abrahamic God, of Jesus, etc., then you will not be able to bring about the necessary state of consciousness, and the grimoires, no matter how much someone tells you they will work if you follow the instructions, will not work for you. This is not a line of thought specific to Lisiewski, either. I believe there is no small amount of ego in his work, personally, but that aside, he does not suggest at all that old system magic is the most or more effective than any other magic - in fact, he cites true Hermetic Magic as the most pure and undiluted magical system available to us. Hermetic Magic is perfectly suitable for the pagan-inclined practitioners, and from it one can absolutely fashion a system of physical evocation, as this practice has been known in ancient cultures well before the advent of the catholic and judaic grimoires so popular with those magicians who practice evocation today. Such a system is very loosely defined within that tradition itself, as is much else thus far owing largely to the limited literature available on the subject, however, with careful study and experience with the essential basic practices that have been uncovered, this systems opens itself up beautifully to the earnest student. This is not 'new age theory' as you so snidely suggest so often, but a matter of my own personal Experience.

As I have said before, not everyone will want to work with the old system grimoires. As I have also said before - and which I know now is supported by your favorite author - it is the system, the law, and the connection one has to the symbols, the rituals, that enact those laws, which is most important for the individual. With that connection, and that understanding, one can erect a system of magic that will work perfectly for them, even if it bears only the skeletal resemblance to other systems of magic - including grimoire work. What I will concede, is that fashioning a workable, practical system of physical evocation (and I will maintain that astral evocation and the communion with entities is a far easier thing, and in many cases just as useful) is very difficult for someone not generally experienced with evocation, and I think requires of them a much more in depth study of the specific magickal laws enabling that magical action, on an intellectual and philosophical level, than other fields of magickal practice.

That is not to suggest that a practitioner can simply fashion such a system haphazardly - certainly the authors of the old grimoires were well versed in their own theology, kabbalah, and magickal theory generally, and were devout in their mystical faith (whether it was in fact judaism or catholicism, or that was simply the nature of the times they lived in) - but that it can be done, it is possible. No, it may not be the safest path, but no serious field of development and discovery is. The fact of the matter is, though, according to the sepher yetzirah, the 22 consonants of the hebrew alphabet - and it can be agreed that all the names of the spirits in the grimoires can be transliterated into hebrew - can be combined in any way to make words, names, which on the astral and causitive planes constitute living forces - spirits, if you will - as the 22 original intelligences are understood to be those which compose all ideas in creation. (that is, ideas of the One Living God, rather than simply mortal ideas, in case it needs to be made clear, I am not aware of the depth of your own education in kabbalistic mysticism). In the old hermetic system, there is even greater depth given to the 22 original ideas. While I am not suggesting that the pracitioner could simply use the same ritual format to evoke any name created by a haphazard combination of these Ideas - again, certainly the authors of the old grimoires knew what they were doing, and divined the names, offices, and purviews of those spirits with purpose and scientific knowledge of the kabbalistic system - it is not beyond the individual to accomplish the necessary work to do this himself.

In conclusion, my suggestion of creating one's own system of evocation was not meant in any kind of flippant or new age manner, and I believe I made that clear enough, though certainly the casual reader accustomed to taking only a cursory read over the text before him, might make that assumption mistakenly. You don't strike me as such a person, though of course I don't know you personally, but none the less it obviously needs to be said.

I believe that you, like Lisiewski, seem to be taken by the idea that because the modern day magickal associations - such as the Golden Dawn, et al., the advent of chaos magick, etc. - tend towards a 'new agey' point of view, that all modernist magick is therefore new age rubbish, and that any exploration and development of old magick into a modern synthesis is also pointless and vain. I, and many successful practitioners reaping the benefits of such exploration and successful synthesis, must disagree thoroughly.

@Petrus,
All points of view are valuable to some degree, even those that can be misleading - when you develop a firm grasp of magickal theory, not only do the grimoires and other magickal texts literally come alive as you read them, but you also quickly begin to realize that even in the new age doggerel that most certainly does infect the average modern magickal view, when it is there, the truthful bits make themselves known, and you will be surprised the places and people in whose company you discover them.

peace


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MagicIsMight
post Jan 17 2008, 04:15 PM
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I have neither ignored nor misunderstood a single word of Dr. Lisiewski's Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation book. I think you have misunderstood what he meant by the subjective synthesis becasue perhaps you've never actually tried his method out for yourself--and again all 'power' to you if you haven't. You still think you can 'do what you want' and this is NOT so when it comes to true Magic, or in this case the Heptameron (since this is the example he uses in the book). You see, it is not until the subjective synthesis is FULLY reached AFTER the stages of knowing, understanding, comprehension and apprehension that one can attain this stage--it is NEVER before--this is how the New Agers like to interpret this.

It is BUILT UP prior to this attainment in your entire being, but the Magic will only work on the practitioners terms AFTER THIS (which is one of the reasons I helped out the young lady come to terms with her belief in "God" FIRST)--but this in NO way means the rules can continued to be 'changed'--in fact, you one will KNOW exactly what to do under a given circumstance or grimoire, and really, they will not change the rules. One must adhere to the Grimoires to the letter and THEN something will happen in which one (in this case, the practitioner) will be able to adhere to his own guidelines of belief that will work for him. And oh yes, my friend, the serious practitioners WILL make the claims I have made in past threads--perhaps you don't know who they are but they are out there--but to write that they wouldn't is simply wrong.

You'd NEVER be able to understand what he meant unless you tried it out for yourself! Theory is one thing. Application is another. You have MUCH to learn yet despite your noble efforts at answering questions in very logical and proficient ways--I was once there, but no longer--I do not need to "sell" the ideas, they "sell themselves"--as my being contacted again and again on this forum has PROVEN. Sometimes the individual can attain things by him or herself but other times they need help to understand how they can approach the God of the Grimoires--in fact, this usually takes no more than a one hour talk with the person to get them started on the right foot--but not everyone is the same, from my experience. Yet another thing I feel the need to bring up with you again and again is that psychic laws are like gravity--it's not up to you to determine how they work! This is utter nonsense. You either fall or you do not. What you can do is MANIPULATE these laws based on the proper development of the subjective synthesis: and THIS will bring about that success in your work.

The Western system of Magic COMES from the ancient Greeks and the Egyptians--so I have no complaints here. What new age contemporaries are 'advocating' is really experimental Magic before the development of the subjective synthesis--this CAN be dangerous. I too have tried it out--and it CAN work, but I am defending the proper use of the Grimoires here. I am not here to mislead you or anyone else, just to tell you what WORKS EXACTLY as it was laid out in the grimoires--I am not wrong.

Mr. Curi

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Jan 17 2008, 05:56 PM


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altpath
post Jan 17 2008, 05:22 PM
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Mr. Curi,

I'm sure that everyone here would appreciate it if you seperated your text nicely into paragraphs, or at least used the return button.
Honestly, who has the patience to read all that?

Well said, Vagrant Dreamer.


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MagicIsMight
post Jan 17 2008, 06:04 PM
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Yes, sorry I meant to edit that. I too like the viewpoint 'Vagrant Dreamer' established, but I needed to correct his thinking because like you 'altpath' he does not have those years of experience that will in time, make his answers more substantial and NOT just in theory. Agree with your own kind and we'll see what type of 'fruits' you will bear! Like I say, all "POWER" to you! All I was here to do was to 'suggest' the hightest and best way possible to perform an evocation. And yes 'altpath,' there are readers who will take the time to read my posts--"honestly!" I too ask that you keep to the topic 'altpath' and email me personally if there is a technical problem with any of my posts.

To drink of my own medicine I will say this, 'Petrus': There are many ways to God, and if you obey the rules of the ancient Grimoires FIRST you will find him on your own terms--NOT the other way around as some would have it.

Mr. Curi

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Jan 17 2008, 06:18 PM


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Vagrant Dreamer
post Jan 17 2008, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE(Mr. Curi @ Jan 17 2008, 05:15 PM) *
I think you have misunderstood what he meant by the subjective synthesis becasue perhaps you've never actually tried his method out for yourself


When I first heard from you, I was skeptical about Lisiewski's work simply because of the claims you made. Having read it, I have already experienced the process of subjective synthesis as he describes it. He did not invent that process, he wrote about it, and did very well at that. However, his book does not cover what I would consider 'advanced' magickal technique. He describes a general set of very good rules regarding working with grimoires specifically, with excellent advice for the Heptameron in particular. And While I certainly will probably work with the heptameron as he suggests, in time, for no other reason really than that it is a curious grimoire that is indeed very different from others I have been familiar with, I am in no wise unfamiliar with exalted consciousness, and for that matter altered consciousness in general (I do not mean drugs, here). Again, Lisiewiski did not personally resurrect true magickal knowledge from it's grave.

QUOTE
You still think you can 'do what you want' and this is NOT so when it comes to true Magic, or in this case the Heptameron (since this is the example he uses in the book).


I have yet to understand where you get that from in the first place. Not once have I suggested such a thing as that the magician may simply do as he pleases in order to bring about any kind of magickal effect. Thus far your interpretation of my words leads me to believe that you lack a fundamental respect for all practitioners not enamored of your personal idol. I have not suggested mixing systems and grimoires, nor have I suggested altering the fundamental rules of the grimoires in any way. The nearest I can see is that I have suggested that as objective entities, the spirits of the grimoires may be evoked through other means - not in altering the grimoires themselves, but in applying other formulas entirely. And I have not suggested that these formulas can be discovered or synthesized in any haphazard way.

QUOTE
You see, it is not until the subjective synthesis is FULLY reached AFTER the stages of knowing, understanding, comprehension and apprehension that one can attain this stage--it is NEVER before--this is how the New Agers like to interpret this. It is BUILT UP prior to this attainment in your entire being, but the Magic will only work on the practitioners terms AFTER THIS (which is one of the reasons I helped out the young lady come to terms with her belief in "God" FIRST)--but this in NO way means the rules can continued to be 'changed'--in fact, you one will KNOW exactly what to do under a given circumstance or grimoire, and really, they will not change the rules.


I would not generalize in such a way as to say that all 'new agers' will make such an assumption. And, I believe that this is basically exactly what I said in a previous post on this thread:
QUOTE
Even in the use of the grammars of old system magic it isn't enough to simply follow the directions. Every tool, every verse, the place, purpose, and name of each spirit must be fully comprehended and grasped - this is according to his text specifically.


Again, you have taken my words as somehow flippant, interpreting 'fully comprehended and grasped' to mean "studied peripherally" somehow. Again, your general lack of respect shows itself. I'm not demanding respect, just an objective read. Your own very obvious bias appears to color your interpretation of everything I say.

Further, I have never suggested changing the fundamental rules of magick. I have advocated a study and apprehension of Magickal Law as the fundamental basis of all magickal practice. You are continually overlooking and ignoring that.

QUOTE
You'd NEVER be able to understand what he meant unless you tried it out for yourself! Theory is one thing. Application is another. You have MUCH to learn yet despite your noble efforts at answering questions in very logical and proficient ways--I was once there, but no longer--I do not need to "sell" the ideas, they "sell themselves"--as my being contacted again and again on this forum has PROVEN.


Unless the book in question covered topics already familiar to me by experience. In fact, his book confirms a lot for me, especially his axioms, and his description of the 'slingshot' effect, something that I learned about the difficult way several years ago, understood more completely just three years ago, and now no longer have to negotiate around. If I am answering any kind of enquiry based on theory, I state so implicitly. You seem convinced that I am some kind of armchair magician. I'm not entirely surprised, I get that often enough. Usually from those that underestimate anyone under a certain age range. I have also been contacted privately by members of this forum - if that is proof that ideas sell themselves, then I suppose I harbor the same proof. I think that is a poor way to view it, however. If you make yourself available and offer your advice freely, to be taken up on your openness is to be expected. I won't disagree I have much to learn - but so do we all, and so we always will.

QUOTE
Sometimes the individual can attain things by him or herself but other times they need help to understand how they can approach the God of the Grimoires--in fact, this usually takes no more than a one hour talk with the person to get them started on the right foot--but not everyone is the same, from my experience.


Agreed. And I do think that most every practitioner should be able to find sympathy with that view of divinity, and be able to work with a grimoire. I simply don't believe - not in a theoretical sense, but because of my own experiences and those of my more experienced and trusted colleagues - that one must work with the classical grimoires in order to practice evocation. Not that those grimoires can or should be altered in any way, but that they are not the only possible route to evocation. The advanced system of Kabbalah itself, permits a formula for evocation. Hermetic Magick offers a formula. They are not as clearly laid out, they are not as simple as that system given in the Heptameron, but the fact remains, that there are other methods. And in the end, the magician must be able to fully absorb him/herself in the formula if they are to do such a practice - and that is going to be different for everyone. I know many people who worked with the Necronomicon successfully, for instance - it's presentation of divinity and anti-divinity, of spirits to be evoked, etc., test them but give them no problems. For me, it was a horrible exercise first in futility, then in forces that did not agree with me - or which I did not agree with, no matter how much I tried to fully assimilate that cosmology.

QUOTE
Yet another thing I feel the need to bring up with you again and again is that psychic laws are like gravity--it's not up to you to determine how they work! This is utter nonsense. You either fall or you do not. What you can do is MANIPULATE these laws based on the proper development of the subjective synthesis: and THIS will bring about that success in your work. The Western system of Magic COMES from the ancient Greeks and the Egyptians--so I have no complaints here.


Again, I have not suggested that psychic, or more particularly, that universal laws - magical, spiritual law, whatever you'd like to term it - can be altered. In fact i have explicitly stated just the opposite. Why you continue to insist that I must be instructed in this fact, I simply do not know.

QUOTE
What new age contemporaries are 'advocating' is really experimental Magic before the development of the subjective synthesis--this CAN be dangerous. I too have tried it out--and it CAN work, but I am defending the proper use of the Grimoires here. I am not here to mislead you or anyone else, just to tell you what WORKS EXACTLY as it was laid out in the grimoires--I am not wrong.


Again, I have not suggested once that one should use the grimoires improperly, or that the grimoires don't work, or anything along that line of reasoning. Why you insist on focusing on this phantom assertion, again, I am utterly at a loss. I agree that the new age systems of magick available en mass to the general populace far outweigh truly valuable works of literature on magickal practice, and that they insist on a system of magick that is extremely 'instant gratification'. Never, in the length of my time here on this forum, ever, once, have I suggested anything of the sort. I have always advocated, with a somewhat different terminology, the study and development of the self, the development of the senses both material and subtle, and the study, interpretation, comprehension and union with those subjects, before effectively doing magickal acts. None of it is arm-chair 'theory' but the fruit of my own experiences. And while my experience with evocation specifically is only a few years old now - as I spent the first 10 years of my purposeful development understanding, experiencing, and ultimately studying my natural talents with energy work and perception - I have never worked directly from a grimoire, with the exception of the Necronomicon and that briefly; however it has not prevented me from getting results, getting what I needed (I do not call on spiritual beings to attend my petty 'wants'), and procuring me the instruction that I needed to further my education and make my own work more effective.

I too encountered a lot of danger at first. It taught me well. On this particular subject at hand, I am suggesting that, according to my EXPERIENCE, the practice of evocation, can be pursued, and effectively cultivated and applied, without using the grimoires at all.

And frankly, you sir appear to be far to involved with your crusade against the 'new age' to deliver an objective, clear, utilitarian message almost at all. I have not seen one post from you which simply states your point of view and experience explicitly, without taking an aside to remind us all that your view is specifically in opposition to the 'new age'. You could simply put such a comment in your signature, and focus on the task at hand. There are many points of view here on this forum. Not all of them will agree with one another. Some of them are from wiccans, chaoticists, ritual magicians, spiritualists, theosophists, and every shade of practitioner from the new age crystal hugger to the devout priestly mystic. The gamut from theory to experience runs wide here. But you seem to have approached this place under the assumption that everyone not specifically sympathetic to you experiences is a 'new age' flake.

I am not defending the new age trends, and I never have here. Mine is simply a path that understands consciousness to be central to the operation of magick, of all kinds. Consciousness is where I began my path, not ritual. I built from a different direction that apparently you did. That our two paths do not align specifically, does not invalidate either one. All I ask of you here, is that you state your view objectively, as an experienced opinion. It does not have to be in opposition or disagreement with any other opinion offered, and if you do so disagree, and would like to say so - take a better assessment of the individual you are initiating a debate with. To enter into such a debate with a rather apparent lack of respect is reprehensible. I have afforded you respect in all of our dealings here, and have not called your experience into question because frankly I don't know about it - similarly, you don't know the first thing about what I have experienced.

QUOTE
I too like the viewpoint 'Vagrant Dreamer' established, but I needed to correct his thinking because like you 'altpath' he does not have those years of experience that will in time, make his answers more substantial and NOT just in theory.


I suppose the above covers this comment as well. To reiterate again, you make an assumption here obviously based on my age. I have nothing else to say on that point - if you are the kind of person to so quickly make such assumptions based on such a thin bit of information, it offers onlookers far more insight into your own self than I think you realize.

QUOTE
'Petrus': There are many ways to God, and if you obey the rules of the ancient Grimoires FIRST you will find him on your own terms--NOT the other way around as some would have it.


This, is the most biased thing I have seen you say here.

I think most people will agree rather universally, that you do not have to find your way to god through the Grimoires, or even 'magick' as it is commonly viewed, at all. Just obeying the rules of the grimoires does not in any way grant the individual an experience of God. You can follow the instructions like a handbook all you want - you may get some inner sense of serenity or development from some grimoires by following their preparatory practices, but obeying those rules does not introduce you to God in and of itself. I would say that many people have had divine experience - myself included - without ever picking up a grimoire for more than a cursory glance. You can find God on your own terms before working with the grimoires. To suggest otherwise is frankly just an ignorant suggestion. I certainly expect more of you than that, so please, clarify this particular statement, for my benefit alone if not for the general benefit of the populace.

peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Jan 17 2008, 11:35 PM


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post Jan 18 2008, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE(Petrus @ Jan 16 2008, 03:52 PM) *
So I've recently been reading Summoning Spirits. It's an interesting book, but something that struck me is that the rituals in it are as Jewish as the proverbial Bar Mitzvah.

This begs a couple of questions.

1) How do people who adhere to non-Abrahamic religions perform evocations?
2) Are these rituals intended to imply that Judaism genuinely is "the truth," in a supreme or objective sense, to a greater degree than that of other religious systems?

Either adapt the Chaote mentality that you can work with other gods outside your paradigm, or do a lot of research and substitute some things, I have done a Solomonic style evocation based off of Egyptian mythology and it worked, there are a lot of ways to evoke other than the Solomonic styles, I know people who developed their own original style and rituals for evocation, as long as you put a lot of energy and get the right symbolism it should work, though I bet a lot of Ceremonialists would disagree with me on that.

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post Jan 18 2008, 01:19 PM
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If Lisiewski's book does not cover an 'advanced' 'magickal' techinique, then I don't know what in the world it is! Obviously you have yet to learn of its power through your experience. Very few, young man, very few are ready to jump into an Evocation to Physical Manifestation. So I thoroughly disagree with this statement--you are mistaken here (which is okay, because you don't know yet). And yes, the author did resurrect Magical 'knowledge from his grave' as you put it because he brought forth information unheard of in the 'New Age' movement based on his being taught by Frater Albertus, Isreal Regardie, and a real System of Magic HE hammered out for the past 40 + years of his dealings with the Occult world (and I don't mean just in this ONE book, but in his other writings as well). It stayed buried for a long time (but not hidden from those who knew where to look). So now, it is available for the public to properly use these techniques that DO NOT stand up to the new age garbage that some are being fed and the so-called 'results' they are getting. There is also very little you know about the man himself and what he has been through to bring Magic back to its true place in our world.

Alright, you're not going to change the rules? We'll find out based on the results you receive! Self-honesty plays a great part in this all, and if you 'do what you want' then I promise the following WILL occur inevitably: you will receive partial results (as I have stated before in my other threads) and the REAL results will not come for YEARS. I don't mean five to ten, I mean twenty to forty or more. Furthermore, as one plans to move away from this new age mentality, and dabbles with Old System Magic (AND ASSUMING this is done CORRECTLY), then you will get LITTLE slingshot effects and FULL results. The other routes to evocation will never work as well as in the Old Grammars of Magic (if you obey the rules)--you're setting yourself up for a WORLD of trouble if you do. The other methods of evocation you mention are what make up the Western Tradition of Magic! It is from here on out that the work begins.

Am I on a crusade to deliver an 'objective, clear, utilitarian message' against the new age, as you write? ABSOLUTELY, YES! They offer nothing of true consequence--as I know you WILL discover--it will take time, but you'll see. You have a 'know it all attitude' so be careful--you are WAY to green at this now, but it will not last forever with you. When and if you decide to try out Lisiewski's method, in the way he describes and TO THE LETTER, you will then be drawn into something else--and THIS is what I will not write about here.

I NEVER ONCE suggested that the ONLY way to God was through the Grimoires this is a misunderstanding yet again on your part 'Vagrant Dreamer'--OF COURSE you can find him beforehnad--BUT if one follows the rules of the Old Grammars of Magic you will discover that part of you that will form a link to the Divine no matter what the cost.

In my opinion, you are either a new age dilettante or you are not. That's just the way it is. You are either reading this or you are not. Old System Magic is a pathway traveled by few, but it really is the best way. To tread on this or that Magical system is actually dabbling. This is what I am advocating and I'm afraid that you are changing your logic to better fit your opinions at the present time and therefore, I do not see consistency in your posts. You make assertions that you later cover up by writing, "I never suggested this or that." My friend it is in defending yourself, that something in you will clear up--I happily already see is already happening with our heated arguments, and I am quite glad you read "Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation." In other words, your posts with me are actually morphing, or changing for the better. You will do just fine in the work that lies ahead for you in the future.

Mr. Curi


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bym
post Jan 18 2008, 09:24 PM
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This is turning into a squabble. On one hand I have a person of regimental modes of approach that will not listen because he is too busy telling us that there is only one way to do things and I have on the other hand a person who is trying to convert a brick. You both have valid points but, I must confess, that the brick has not accepted the mortar.

Most of the Grimoires dating between 1000AD and 2007 AD are very distorted texts from their original forms. Beneath those pages exist a surviving philosophy that empowers Western Magic as we have come to know it. If we wish to perform evocation using the Grimoires as a template it behooves us to try the recipe first before we adapt it. This needn't be a hard rule but one that is suggested. If a new student wishes to perform Magic as they see fit, then they also accept the possibility of failure. BTW...Solomonic texts have disagreed with their various forms constantly. Some insist that a crystal be used for the evocation whilst others insist that a brazen plaque/vessel be used, others insist upon a Triangle and some don't use anything at all! They all work. They...all...work! Which leads to any number of interesting ideas. Solomon would have got nowhere without a particular Ring given to him by a spiritual entity. Matter of fact, he was damned lucky that this happened. He didn't have the luxury of reading an occult tome that told him to do things just so. And...his religous proclivities left much to be desired when viewed by the local priests. He was a damn poor magician.

Enough! This squabble is now ended. All here are commended for their viewpoints. NOW, can we hear from those that have tried non-traditional (other than the Xtian/Judaic) methods of evocation? Let us stray from the aforementioned Grimoires and Mr. Abano's Heptameron. Perhaps a discourse on the Djinn which has been making a comeback? What say you gentlemen/women/neuters? Does evocation require a divinity to be performed accurately? Inquiring minds would love to know! Keep a happy thought! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif)


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post Jan 18 2008, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE(bym @ Jan 18 2008, 11:24 PM) *
can we hear from those that have tried non-traditional (other than the Xtian/Judaic) methods of evocation? Let us stray from the aforementioned Grimoires and Mr. Abano's Heptameron. Perhaps a discourse on the Djinn which has been making a comeback? What say you gentlemen/women/neuters? Does evocation require a divinity to be performed accurately? Inquiring minds would love to know! Keep a happy thought! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif)


I can't say I have any experience with the traditional djinn, then again there are many who believe the goetia spirits are djinn. I've never asked them, but if they are, well there you have it.

I don't ever really call on a divinity to help me to bring the presence of the daemons. I don't force them to show up, or force them to bring results. They simply do, which is great for me, and anybody I do workings for.

I do work with at least one godform on a regular basis nowadays for protection, but that's actually more for my mundane life (which is somewhat dangerous for a couple reasons) than for magical protection. Not that I can't count on my friends for protection from spiritual attacks, but it's less likely I be attacked by other magicians than it is for me to get mugged or attacked by some local nut.

I also think that most people don't put enough emphasis on working relationships with the HGA, not just for spiritual elevation, but for actual mundane work. The HGA is always there ready to hear us, but we usually don't listen. We sometimes don't want to listen. That's the biggest mistake we can make in our lives, IMHO.

Anyway, I'm rambling. My advice to anyone that wants to read it, speak to the daemons and angels and gods, ask them for teachings. Ask them advice daily, and find your HGA. That's all that is needed for the non-religious practitioner (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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Petrus
post Jan 19 2008, 06:39 PM
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QUOTE(Mr. Curi @ Jan 17 2008, 11:59 AM) *
I suggest that you discover FIRST 'who' it is you are approaching in such work. It is the "God of the Grimoires" and is indeed one of the many facets to finding him. And yes, be careful with those who misinterpret Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation: these are New Agers.


I agree with bym that there are some very valid perspectives presented by all here, and I thank everyone for their answers.

Mr. Curi, I genuinely feel that your exhortations to people to exercise due diligence and not merely expect instant gratification are commendable, and of vital importance in a person maintaining their wellbeing, but at the same time, I also find Vagrant Dreamer's more eclectic perspective interesting as well.

Please understand one thing. I am not, for the very life of me, suggesting that I am at anywhere near the level of proficiency needed to form my own system for evocation; I have not yet performed a single act of true evocation, as I am currently still in the process of getting my astral senses to a workable level. My degree of respect for the dangers inherent in the practice mean that I will be very sure to have both a concrete reason for engaging in it, and a firm grasp of the particulars involved before I would even remotely consider it, even if such takes years...as I do, in truth, consider it to be potentially an extremely dangerous practice.

My primary concern was, that as I have written elsewhere, I have over the past of several months come to accept Mother Kali as a primary deity, and thus feel that if I am ever going to attempt evocatory practice, it would have to be framed in such a way that She, rather than the God of Israel, was the primary focus of any divine exhortations that needed to be made. I have been unable to find any information concerning evocatory practice within a Hindu framework, (if such even exists) and therefore was hoping I could obtain guidance on ways in which to adapt the existing ritual as necessary, while of course still maintaining its' effectiveness.


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loki
post Jan 19 2008, 07:21 PM
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If you don't have these already,you might want to have a look at The Mystic test book of the Hindu Occult Chambers, by DR. L. W. DELAURENCE, and The Cult of Draupadi: On Hindu Ritual and the Goddess By Alf Hiltebeitel. They might give you ideas of how to go forward.

Loki

This post has been edited by loki: Jan 19 2008, 07:25 PM

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Petrus
post Jan 19 2008, 10:10 PM
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QUOTE(loki @ Jan 20 2008, 12:21 PM) *
If you don't have these already,you might want to have a look at The Mystic test book of the Hindu Occult Chambers, by DR. L. W. DELAURENCE, and The Cult of Draupadi: On Hindu Ritual and the Goddess By Alf Hiltebeitel. They might give you ideas of how to go forward.

Loki


Thank you, Loki, for this information. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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Hermetic Angel
post Apr 5 2008, 03:11 AM
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From my experience I have found that although we call these entities by different names they are still the same things a God is beyond any name a human could give. Therefore i see no reason was a Pagan should have any adversion to using Christian diety names or any other religious names, I remember being taught in my childhood that there is One God and Countless faces for that One being. Not everyone is able to or ready to see the same face someone else may, but it's when we realize the Oneness of those many forces that we truly start to know them.

Anyway, there are my two cents hope I didn't offend anyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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altpath
post Apr 5 2008, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE(Hermetic Angel @ Apr 5 2008, 05:11 AM) *
Therefore i see no reason was a Pagan should have any adversion to using Christian diety names or any other religious names


That sort of thinking works only in theory for christians, jews, or muslims. But for the actual deities or entities involved, that just won't do.

Perhaps a pagan wouldn't have a problem with that (doubtful), but try calling an Egyptian god like Horus and be calling him all the time he's there "Jehovah". Just wait and see if he doesn't kick your ass then and there, or possibly makes your life a living hell for awhile!

When working with any godform or entity, call it whatever it likes to be called. Don't assume you know more about it that anyone else, or that simply because something is "ok" with you doesn't mean it's fine for it.


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rif
post Apr 6 2008, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE(Vagrant Dreamer @ Jan 16 2008, 08:12 PM) *
So, I suggest looking into Hermetic Magick. Start at the root, with these books: Hermetic Magic and The Greek Magical Papyri.


Oddly enough, I was just looking into obtaining these two books last week. I've come across some references to the Papyri book which piqued my interest; and while looking it up, I came across the Hermetic Magic book. Which happens to be available from my local library.

Now that I've seen both referenced here in one place, I feel like I'm meant to read them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[not enough posts to allow me to supply the correct link to the Papyri; or I would]

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alkeides
post Nov 26 2009, 10:32 AM
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The roots of much of Judaeo-Christian rituals were in syncretic paganism from the Middle East anyway. Kabbalistic concepts can be clearly seen to derive from Neo-Platonic thought (and not the other way round, despite what some occultists or otherwise ideologically conservative individuals might think), with things like the quadripartite division of the soul, the division of the Divinity into a trinity all found in Greek philosophy, which was unlikely to have been influenced by Hebraic though, considering that the Jews were under Persian rule thousands of kilometers away, freshly returned from exile at the time of Plato; theurgia and goetia are Greek terms, having their place in Neo-Platonic cults, the Emperor Julian even participated in some of them and performed their rituals.

The adoption of all this Hellenistic philosophical concepts was motivated by the temporal superiority of Hellentistic thought around the early centuries before and after the common era in the wake of Greek and thence Roman conquests. Philo was the first to apply these terms to Judaism and afterwards with the conversion of rich gentiles, Christians with an education began applying what they learnt from Hellenistic philosophy to their own religion, simultaneously attempting to attract educated pagans by showing them that Christianity could be more aligned with classical philosophy than the pagan myths.

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Kath
post Nov 27 2009, 11:17 AM
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nice post alkeides (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I practice evocation in a different format entirely (than ritual evocation I mean), so some of what has been said in the older debate strikes me as rather dogmatic.

As to why someone might want to practice evocation *without* YHVH & company, angst filled anti-christian sentiment and a desire for a 'cooler' ritual are not the only reasons a person might want to do this. Myself, I was raised in an extremely religious and biblical-scholarly environment, and no I didn't 'hate' it at the time, or develop a combative relationship with my brainwashers. Instead I actually studied the material quite diligently, and I became a "true believer" style christian after a religious experience. All of this lasted until the age of 27/28, at which point in time I had a crisis of faith. Or perhaps more accurately, I came to feel that I had been 'duped' by a global cult. Once the cracks in my faith began to form, rationality, a strong background in psychology, and a strong background in the literary history of the faith, all combined to spread the cracks very quickly, and in no time my religious illusions were shattered.

I will say this, monotheism does use some interesting magick. Even when I was myself completely within the monotheist paradigm, I was always attracted to their magick. I think that many fail to recognize just how much magical practice is actually in the typical church service. My background was dually in catholicism and protestantism, so I got a taste of both ritualistic/chant oriented christian magick, and the more flamboyant energy channeling magick of things like faith healers. And I personally practiced both forms, with some success (yes, I've personally 'done' faith healing). But really there is magical practice tucked into every corner of every tradition in christianity. Everything from votive candles, to ritual communion, to deity invocation... I'll spare you all a huge rundown of all the magical practices & their nonchristian analogs.

Personally I currently consider their 'god' to be a "super-egregore" having nothing to do with the creation of the universe or a figurehead at the light end of a light/dark dualism scheme. In other words, it ain't exactly what it's billed as.

Anyway, it amuses me to see how some people approach ritual magick. And I don't mean for that to be insulting. But, if a person were to write "god's" name in chalk in their ritual floor pattern... what *exactly* does that do? Is it a sigil? does resonating the name in the right chanting monotone cause some magical effect in and of itself? (actually mantra recitation is an interesting magical system, but i digress). What I get from a lot of ritual magick practicioners is a sense of... well, imagine someone who was 'not' a member of the christian faith, now lets say they see some sort of potent christian magick and are impressed. Now lets say they go to a church and steal the crucifix to use as a talisman against illness. Do you think it will work? Or do you think that you might need a working relationship with the egregore behind the sigil in order to utilize it properly? Personally I strongly lean towards the latter.

The christian egregore is heavily littered with 'true believer' prerequisite ideology. In other words, I do not think that you can invoke the power of god just by using his symbolism. If you think he is an egregore, then he is an egregore built by people who hate nonbelievers. If you think he is a real deity, then it makes even less sense to think that you can tell him how to behave just by writing his name. I just don't quite 'get' how a non-christian could comfortably and rationally approach ritual formats which call for christian-faith-based magical forces. It strikes me as more superstitious than formulaic. I say this as someone who is currently a nonchristian myself, and has been for almost a decade. As well as being someone who has studied and worked with most western esoteric ritual formats.

So please remember that the thinking which goes into the construction of most western rituals, is 'a paradigm', not 'an ultimate truth in the universe'. And as such, modification or ignorance of the dogmatic components is not only to be expected, but (by some ways of thinking) even encouraged. And there will be plenty of practicioners (myself included) who will not flinch at the use of christian ideology in their magick out of some desire for a heavy metal album sense of style, but simply because we feel it to be factually invalid content.

anyway, I never did get to the bit where I actually answer the question I was meaning to answer. Namely "alternative" evocation methodology. But I need to leave for work. oh well, it provides a breaking point in my reply I guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Kath: Nov 27 2009, 11:19 AM


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post Mar 17 2010, 09:55 AM
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QUOTE(Petrus @ Jan 16 2008, 04:52 PM) *

So I've recently been reading Summoning Spirits. It's an interesting book, but something that struck me is that the rituals in it are as Jewish as the proverbial Bar Mitzvah.

This begs a couple of questions.

1) How do people who adhere to non-Abrahamic religions perform evocations?
2) Are these rituals intended to imply that Judaism genuinely is "the truth," in a supreme or objective sense, to a greater degree than that of other religious systems?

Judaism is Abrahamic... you're off on that one. The three abrahamic religions are the ones that hate each other the most; Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

Every religion designs everything to tell people that it is "the truth." If you're reading the Torah, it says Judaism is "the truth." Same thing for Christianity and everything else. The answer is yes, but that's not something to hold against the rituals because every religious ritual does it.


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Praxis
post Nov 11 2011, 09:12 PM
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I use my own system for summoning/banishing and evoking/invoking (which I've explained elsewhere on these forums somewhere several years ago) - because, quite honestly, so much of the mechanics and explanations of the archaic paradigms fails to be accurate according to my experience.

I still very much enjoy browsing through the various pantheons from the ol' systems to study how they are put together and inspire me to refine the structure and dynamics of mine. But I do not do any workings with their deities because, well again, they are always "off" in some way that causes my magickal workings along this line to produce erratic results.

This general path - Doing It Oneself! (so to speak) - definitely is a road-less-travelled.
Saying it is a challenge being my own Magickal Code Monkey is comedic understatement.

Yet I have enjoyed consistent success doing so.

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