Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
 Why They Say That Even If Necronicon Is Fake It Can Be Dangerous?, is Necronomicon fake and dagerous
brokenhearth
post Aug 26 2009, 01:34 PM
Post #1


Neophyte
Group Icon
Posts: 21
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
Reputation: none




why they say that the Necronicon is fake and at the same time it can be very dangerous?

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post


Belumnabum
post Aug 29 2009, 06:13 AM
Post #2


Initiate
Group Icon
Posts: 5
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
Reputation: none




QUOTE(brokenhearth @ Aug 26 2009, 02:34 PM) *

why they say that the Necronicon is fake and at the same time it can be very dangerous?

Ever heard of what you believe may not care about you but still affect you?
10 000 BC is not exactly what people knew about these times nor had any knowledge about it but these things were still there. Does that make them fake? Perhaps because people do not know but WERE THEY FAKE? That people do not know and yet if they were there they were not fake.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Aphrodite
post Aug 29 2009, 11:00 PM
Post #3


Zelator
Group Icon
Posts: 128
Age: N/A
Gender: Female
Reputation: 4 pts




Its the whole thought form/god form theory.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Penny_Lane
post Sep 2 2009, 07:49 AM
Post #4


Neophyte
Group Icon
Posts: 65
Age: N/A
Gender: Female
Reputation: none




Many people who disagree with the politics or spiritual beliefs implicit in the Necronomicon claim that it is "fake." Many of the same people also claim that it is "dangerous," mainly because they are hoping that you will not research it for yourself.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Ankhhape
post Sep 2 2009, 04:50 PM
Post #5


Neophyte
Group Icon
Posts: 42
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
Reputation: none




The late H P Lovecraft was a die hard atheist. He didn't just not believe in magic he felt that any one who did was delusional, stupid and generally inferior. We know this based on his countless letters to friends. In his stories he rarely bothered to use real magical practices and when he did he usually got it wrong (see "The Horror at Red Hook."). He was well aware of Aleister Crowley and felt the man was a degenerate and an imbecile (see afore mentioned letters). The root of his short stories was in fact in his atheism and generally fatalistic view (man is an inconsequential speck on an inconsequential speck in a universe that doesn't care) not knowledge of some "ancient evil."

As for the book itself and the conjuring of demons. This doesn't jive with any known Sumerian texts on magic (several still exist). While the Sumerians believed in demons the only magic we have record of regarding them is to get rid of demons not summon them. Also Marduk who is referenced in the book is a Babylonian god NOT a Sumerian one. Several entities in the book (Xthuhlu, Xastur for example) simply don't exist in mythology. Not simply in Sumerian mythology but in any mythology on the face of the planet. They are fictional creations of horror writers (Cthuhlu and Hastur) borrowed for the book.


--------------------
Kheper-i kheper kheperu kheper-kuie
em kheperu en Khepri kheper em Sep Tepy

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Hybrid Theory
post Dec 2 2009, 06:17 PM
Post #6


Neophyte
Group Icon
Posts: 16
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
Reputation: none




QUOTE(brokenhearth @ Aug 26 2009, 02:34 PM) *

why they say that the Necronicon is fake and at the same time it can be very dangerous?


It is because although the origin of the Simonicon is rather dubious; even though Simon states that he merely edited the Simon Nec and actually found a hidden manuscript and translated it into english from greek, the deities as ascribed in the Simonicon are REAL. Talk to any Nec priest and they will all tell you with the greatest assurance possible that they are real. Know why? Because they get to see first hand evidence of these spirits (the 50 names, done by evocation) and Gods (done by gatewalking)

Hope this helps ya buddy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Vilhjalmr
post Dec 2 2009, 10:59 PM
Post #7


Zelator
Group Icon
Posts: 181
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
From: Medrengard
Reputation: 2 pts




QUOTE(Ankhhape @ Sep 2 2009, 04:50 PM) *

This doesn't jive with any known Sumerian texts on magic (several still exist).

Wow, really? That's great. Can you tell me any more about this? Links, e-books, titles, info, anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


--------------------
Für Wodin!

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Kath
post Dec 3 2009, 06:22 AM
Post #8


Zelator
Group Icon
Posts: 220
Age: N/A
Gender: Female
Reputation: 8 pts




QUOTE(brokenhearth @ Aug 26 2009, 01:34 PM) *

why they say that the Necronicon is fake and at the same time it can be very dangerous?

well people like to say that things are dangerous... cuz danger is an inherent part of existence, and a handy excuse for not trying things.

...as to why they say it is 'fake' but that it can 'work' :

well... the content is courtesy of H.P. Lovecraft, and it is fictional. Of *some* interest is the fact that lovecraft is obviously an occultist hismelf, and that may cause him to relate more easily 'workable' systems of magick practice than he might otherwise. But how can something 'fictional' have power? Well look at "God", the christian god for example. 4,000 years ago, nobody ever heard of this 'god'. someone, somewhere along the line, made him up (thanks a lot abraham).

so, currently about 1-1.5 billion people believe that this god created the universe, and can do anything (not counting islamic variations on the theme). And many of these people pray for things (theurgic magick), worship, etc. Is their 'god' actually powerful, capable of causing real world effects? speaking from experience, I'd say "yes". But that doesn't mean his origin is any less fictional. Actually a great deal of western esoteric magick depends on this principal to work, since a lot of it was invented only 500 or fewer years ago... not that stuff which is invented thousands or years ago is more 'true', just that they have more social force behind them.

so basically, 'belief' itself can do stuff. and shared belief between multiple people, can do 'more'. So the fictional stuff in the necronomicon, has the potential for potency.

anyway, the real reason people say it is fake, and are often the same people who say it is dangerous was already posted :
QUOTE(Penny_Lane @ Sep 2 2009, 07:49 AM) *

Many people who disagree with the politics or spiritual beliefs implicit in the Necronomicon claim that it is "fake." Many of the same people also claim that it is "dangerous," mainly because they are hoping that you will not research it for yourself.



This post has been edited by Kath: Dec 3 2009, 06:25 AM


--------------------
‘Εκατερινη
IPB Image
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Audaces fortuna iuvat

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

lightseeker
post Dec 3 2009, 08:54 AM
Post #9


Initiate
Group Icon
Posts: 3
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
From: Alabama
Reputation: none




QUOTE(brokenhearth @ Aug 26 2009, 01:34 PM) *

why they say that the Necronicon is fake and at the same time it can be very dangerous?




From the things that I have read, the Necromicon is, as others have stated, a work of fiction, very loosely based on Sumerian religion. Kath makes a great point in discussing the mental energy behind thought forms on the astral or other planes though. Go over what she says, and you have a very good idea of why although fictional, the Necronomicon can still be considered valid and potentially dangerous.

The only thing that I could add is that the entities dealt with in the Necronomicon are of an evil and destructive nature, are uncontrollable, and destroy those who call them. Actually, I was reading about this very subject last night. According to the notes at the end of the book I am studying, the author states that "(It is my belief that) The beliefs and repeated rituals of others over the years have created thought-forms which function, to an extent, along the lines of the entities described in the (various versions of) the Necronomicon." That is his opinion on the matter, and based on what I know about the actual power of thought-forms (egregores) I tend to agree with that premise.

This post has been edited by lightseeker: Dec 3 2009, 08:58 AM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Fio Praeter Humanus
post Dec 4 2009, 08:08 AM
Post #10


Theurgist
Group Icon
Posts: 511
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
From: South, GA
Reputation: 6 pts




The Necronomicon is a fake book and is (potentially) dangerous.

Simon fabricated the book to cash in on the Nec name. BUT the spirits within for the most part are very real. The Goetia when written was also a fake book, there is nothing to suggest it was actually written by Solomon, but the spirits within are real and it follows a certain formula magicians have found to work for a long time, as does the Necronomicon. It really hinges on how you wish to define "fake book". No it is not an ancient sumerian text passed down through the ages, but yes the spirits are very real and can be contacted and worked with by following the instructions.

The dangerous part comes from people not taking it seriously and treating it as a game because it is "fake". Also the spirits described appear more readily and stronger than almost any text I have seen. I think if you starve spirits and gods for a long enough time they are willing to use anything to gain attention, even using something as silly as the Nec.


--------------------

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Hybrid Theory
post Dec 4 2009, 08:50 AM
Post #11


Neophyte
Group Icon
Posts: 16
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
Reputation: none




QUOTE(Fio Praeter Humanus @ Dec 4 2009, 09:08 AM) *

The Necronomicon is a fake book and is (potentially) dangerous.

Simon fabricated the book to cash in on the Nec name. BUT the spirits within for the most part are very real. The Goetia when written was also a fake book, there is nothing to suggest it was actually written by Solomon, but the spirits within are real and it follows a certain formula magicians have found to work for a long time, as does the Necronomicon. It really hinges on how you wish to define "fake book". No it is not an ancient sumerian text passed down through the ages, but yes the spirits are very real and can be contacted and worked with by following the instructions.

The dangerous part comes from people not taking it seriously and treating it as a game because it is "fake". Also the spirits described appear more readily and stronger than almost any text I have seen. I think if you starve spirits and gods for a long enough time they are willing to use anything to gain attention, even using something as silly as the Nec.


Very well said Fio. I couldn't have said it better myself! Though having said that, i have yet to read Simon's book Dead Names that support that he actually merely edited the Necronomicon. So i can't really decide on whether or not it is a genuine manuscript because I have yet to fulfil my perspective on the origin of this dreaded tome! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Vagrant Dreamer
post Dec 4 2009, 10:01 AM
Post #12


Practicus
Group Icon
Posts: 1,184
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Reputation: 51 pts




I've been giving this some thought lately - personally I don't doubt that the Nec works because I've worked with it before and my experiences were mostly very disturbing.

However, although the book itself may have been fabricated, I wonder at the actual origin - above and beyond any cultural roots. Where exactly do 'ideas' come from anyway? Although I'm not at all inclined to believe in every tom dick and harry who says they are channeling information from archangels, extra-terrestrials, planetary spirits and ancient ascended masters, there is a kind of reverse percolation of information which descends (or ascends, or both) from the unstructured realm of raw potential into the human creative cycle to manifest as 'ideas' and such in ways that we recognize. For particularly aware individuals this is obvious in that sense of something approaching creatively but not yet 'ready' to take form - less aware folks I think experience more of a generalized sense of empowered excitement for apparently no reason before that realization suddenly breaks. I think the only difference is that those who can see in that direction through practice or natural aptitude possibly sense the approach earlier while in the former case they sense it when the current causes a particular set of patterns to form in the subconscious.

What I mean, of course, is that although this work and many others may be, strictly speaking, fictional works in the sense that they are not strictly academic - nonetheless they may be inspired by something more than just the desire to make money. It's possible that this reasoning for any particular author might be the cattle prod which instigated the physical work itself; but many of us here, I think, realize that sometimes your 'own' reasoning can be just a way to manipulate an individual into accomplishing some necessary thing.

This doesn't, in my opinion, make the Nec any more inspired than any other creative work, but no less inspired either. Perhaps the spirits called using the rituals outlined therein themselves manipulated that work into being. Perhaps the spirit (in the broad sense, not the individual soul) of Solomon inspired the Goetia as we know it.

peace


--------------------
The world is complicated - that which makes it up is elegantly simplistic, but infinitely versatile.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Traceless
post Jan 19 2010, 06:16 AM
Post #13


Neophyte
Group Icon
Posts: 13
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
From: n-dimesional space
Reputation: none




While the book itself is a work of fiction it does weave actual Sumerian mythology into its structure and by all accounts the Sumerians had a well developed system of magic so people who work with the Necronomicon are sometimes tapping into some of the most ancient magic and most primal forces on the planet. The names of gods may change but the forces these gods are manifestations of do not.


--------------------
Trust nothing, Dare all.
IPB Image

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

SororZSD23
post Jan 19 2010, 08:06 AM
Post #14


Neophyte
Group Icon
Posts: 93
Age: N/A
Gender: Female
From: Over the Rainbow
Reputation: 4 pts




QUOTE(Ankhhape @ Sep 2 2009, 05:50 PM) *

The late H P Lovecraft was a die hard atheist. He didn't just not believe in magic he felt that any one who did was delusional, stupid and generally inferior. We know this based on his countless letters to friends. In his stories he rarely bothered to use real magical practices and when he did he usually got it wrong (see "The Horror at Red Hook."). He was well aware of Aleister Crowley and felt the man was a degenerate and an imbecile (see afore mentioned letters). The root of his short stories was in fact in his atheism and generally fatalistic view (man is an inconsequential speck on an inconsequential speck in a universe that doesn't care) not knowledge of some "ancient evil."

As for the book itself and the conjuring of demons. This doesn't jive with any known Sumerian texts on magic (several still exist). While the Sumerians believed in demons the only magic we have record of regarding them is to get rid of demons not summon them. Also Marduk who is referenced in the book is a Babylonian god NOT a Sumerian one. Several entities in the book (Xthuhlu, Xastur for example) simply don't exist in mythology. Not simply in Sumerian mythology but in any mythology on the face of the planet. They are fictional creations of horror writers (Cthuhlu and Hastur) borrowed for the book.



Yep. This about says it. You have to understand this first and then go to the next step. Why do people say it is dangerous and what is the thing about the Simon Necronomicon? The Simon Necronomicon is one of several spin offs of HP Lovecrafts novel about it. It was written by Discordians as an ingenious spoof. You know "Disinformation" and "mindfucks" for the New Aeon. The Necronomicon "works" because people's brain's work. It is about the projection of consciousness. If you are projecting demons,chthonic and unbridles deities, etc., that is what you are going to get. Then what? People do this all the and unwittingly--nevermind using a grimoire for it--in both magick and spirituality and they freak themselves out. In fact, for some, it jogs latent metal illness.

It is actually a very esoteric and transformational, cathartic process to work with dark entities--which are aspects of your own and others consciousness-- but it is not to be entered into lightlly or as curiousity or sport or because you want to be a dark sorcerer. "Mind your head." In Eastern mysticism they have well developed disciplines regarding that; in Western occultism, we have a cult classic without a real instruction manual. Read it and then page through the Pseudomonicon or other stuff by Phil Hine for an approximation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)


--------------------
Leaving aside those principles of magic that play on the superstitious and that, whatever they be, are unworthy of the general public, we will direct our thoughts only to those things that contribute to wisdom and that can satisfy better minds . . . -from De Magia by Giordano Bruno (born 1548; burned at the stake February 16, 1600).
My Webpage

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Ex Lux
post Nov 9 2010, 11:49 PM
Post #15


Neophyte
Group Icon
Posts: 10
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
From: Connecticut USA
Reputation: none




We may be talking about a book of dubious origin and veracity, however it doesn't matter. When we align our will and perception along specific lines and call out into the aether, we can bet that something will answer, and that something will have absolute sympathy with our call provided we shout cohesively. For the most part, what we call the answering entity is mostly irrelevant. The only significance of the name is whether the entity accepts it as a designation for itself. It is possible to work out names and summoning gestures for just about any being through the process of negotiation. "Hey, can I call you Jim?" "Sure" "Ok Jim, Let's go get something to eat.", "Ok.". We do this all the time with other incarnate entities without thinking about it at all but with disincarnate entities we cling to names as a sole frame of reference. When you dialed Chthulhu did you actually reach him? The entity who answers obviously knew you were asking for him, just like asking in a room full of Metal Heads, "Hey, who's got the twisted snake arm tattoo with the dagger through it's head?" Names are just another attribute.

How many here invoke with god forms solely? You certainly don't have to chant Thoth Thoth Thoth Thoth to invoke him while you're holding his god form.

Everyone spends so much time analyzing the Necronomicon for historical context and accuracy, but it's basically a fruitless pursuit. As Kath stated regarding the Goetia and western ritual tradition, the historical veracity of many of these works is questionable; their effectiveness however is not so easily dismissed.






User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

UnKnown1
post Jan 6 2011, 07:09 PM
Post #16


Smasher666
Group Icon
Posts: 996
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
Reputation: 27 pts




In Lovecraft’s stories, he makes note about a book called the Necronomicon, which is said to be a sacred book of the dead which lead far back to the gods of ancient Sumerians. Sumerians were known to be from one of the oldest civilizations located in the Middle East. The gods they worshipped are noted within the Necronomicon. However, many fear this book because they fear the gods and the spirits that are contained within the book. Also, many claim this book was falsely created from the imagination of Lovecraft since the Necronomicon first appeared to the public in his stories. Yet, this is not true because Aleister Crowley knew about this book before Lovecraft, and Sonia Greene told Lovecraft about it, which led him to include it in his stories. Sonia, Lovecrafts wife had prior romantic relations with Crowley the most famous occultist in history. Sonia was an occult student of Crowley making her somewhat of a social elitist to be included within such closed circles.. This fact as well as her influencing his writing is quite interesting. The Necronomicon is in fact exists and has been translated into many languages over the years. Peter Lavenda, also known by the alias Simon, acquired this book and had it printed. Now there are still conflicts over this book and how to use it, but again only those who are ready and willing know how it is used (Joshi 2006 7).

QUOTE(Kath @ Dec 3 2009, 07:22 AM) *

well people like to say that things are dangerous... cuz danger is an inherent part of existence, and a handy excuse for not trying things.

...as to why they say it is 'fake' but that it can 'work' :

well... the content is courtesy of H.P. Lovecraft, and it is fictional. Of *some* interest is the fact that lovecraft is obviously an occultist hismelf, and that may cause him to relate more easily 'workable' systems of magick practice than he might otherwise. But how can something 'fictional' have power? Well look at "God", the christian god for example. 4,000 years ago, nobody ever heard of this 'god'. someone, somewhere along the line, made him up (thanks a lot abraham).

so, currently about 1-1.5 billion people believe that this god created the universe, and can do anything (not counting islamic variations on the theme). And many of these people pray for things (theurgic magick), worship, etc. Is their 'god' actually powerful, capable of causing real world effects? speaking from experience, I'd say "yes". But that doesn't mean his origin is any less fictional. Actually a great deal of western esoteric magick depends on this principal to work, since a lot of it was invented only 500 or fewer years ago... not that stuff which is invented thousands or years ago is more 'true', just that they have more social force behind them.

so basically, 'belief' itself can do stuff. and shared belief between multiple people, can do 'more'. So the fictional stuff in the necronomicon, has the potential for potency.

anyway, the real reason people say it is fake, and are often the same people who say it is dangerous was already posted :


User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

UnKnown1
post Jan 10 2011, 09:31 AM
Post #17


Smasher666
Group Icon
Posts: 996
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
Reputation: 27 pts




QUOTE(Edunpanna @ Jan 6 2011, 08:09 PM) *

In Lovecraft’s stories, he makes note about a book called the Necronomicon, which is said to be a sacred book of the dead which lead far back to the gods of ancient Sumerians. Sumerians were known to be from one of the oldest civilizations located in the Middle East. The gods they worshipped are noted within the Necronomicon. However, many fear this book because they fear the gods and the spirits that are contained within the book. Also, many claim this book was falsely created from the imagination of Lovecraft since the Necronomicon first appeared to the public in his stories. Yet, this is not true because Aleister Crowley knew about this book before Lovecraft, and Sonia Greene told Lovecraft about it, which led him to include it in his stories. Sonia, Lovecrafts wife had prior romantic relations with Crowley the most famous occultist in history. Sonia was an occult student of Crowley making her somewhat of a social elitist to be included within such closed circles.. This fact as well as her influencing his writing is quite interesting. The Necronomicon is in fact exists and has been translated into many languages over the years. Peter Lavenda, also known by the alias Simon, acquired this book and had it printed. Now there are still conflicts over this book and how to use it, but again only those who are ready and willing know how it is used (Joshi 2006 7).



Keep in mind that I am not saying that Simon is Peter Lavenda. That is what Joshi claims. In recent interviews SImon claims that he is not Peter Lavenda.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Closed
Topic Notes
Reply to this topicStart new topic

Collapse

Similar Topics

Topic Title Replies Topic Starter Views Last Action
Cobol Dangerous? 8 Heathen 516 Sep 30 2008, 09:12 AM
Last post by: Heathen
Summer Is A Destructive And Dangerous Season. 1 Neris- 754 Nov 18 2007, 12:39 PM
Last post by: esoterica
Fake Witches? 38 ThirdDimension 2,184 Jul 2 2007, 05:40 PM
Last post by: The White Chaos
Dangerous Games? 5 Rick 669 Apr 30 2007, 05:28 AM
Last post by: xXDaemonReignXx

1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 25th September 2017 - 04:06 AM