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 Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
Athena
post May 27 2005, 04:28 PM
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I hope this is the right forum for this. Pretty lame that this happens...
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...01/%20505260481
Athena


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wisdomsbane
post Jun 17 2005, 07:47 PM
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yeah i read about that. and in america no less. the judge was putting his own personal feelings and beliefs, before the law. you know that really steams me.

i think the judge should be taken off the bench. but then again what do i know. i'm only one of the citizens paying the salaries of people like him.

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Satarel
post Jun 18 2005, 12:28 AM
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Um... what happened to the Constitution, which allows any religion?!

That is why it was written - because the majority of the founding fathers were non-mainstream.


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sabbath
post Jul 21 2005, 11:22 AM
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Crap like this infuriates me as it serves as an excellent example on how this country is going down the tubes and is straying from the values and beliefs on which is was originally founded.

Why does the law have any right to interfere with what religoin a child is being brought up in??

Our government is becoming too powerful and some of the legislation they pass is utterly rediculous. The FCC especially, trying to censor everything.

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Avitus
post Jul 25 2005, 02:10 AM
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Thats pretty sad I'm a law student and I know for a fact that something like this would never get passed in a New Zealand court. But that is what the appeals system is for to ensure that the judgements are 'just' ones. Undoubtably the rulling will be appealed.

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Paradox
post Apr 19 2006, 02:00 AM
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Reading that article sickened me and made me feel some how victiumized. It's not fare at all that we can't teach our children to respect the earth and nature but they can teach their children to hate and bash homosexuals, transgendereds and peoples of other faiths.


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Praxis
post Apr 20 2006, 04:25 AM
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Here is the followup to that situation:

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2250

http://www.mega.bz/pagan/wiccanica.mgi?id=71

This post has been edited by Praxis: Apr 20 2006, 04:27 AM

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Paradox
post Apr 21 2006, 02:15 AM
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Thank you soo much for the update Praxis.


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Ashnook
post Nov 12 2006, 03:40 AM
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Thank the heavens that the original decision was reversed. It is disgusting to see a judge in the United States try to determine the religion of a child.

This post has been edited by Ashnook: Nov 12 2006, 03:42 AM


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denk75
post Nov 16 2006, 10:17 PM
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This case happened in my home state. It is horrible that any judge would make that ruling. Unfortunatly, I have found in Indiana, anyone who does not worship "God" as christians do, must worship the devil. It is sad but that is how most of Indiana is. Even othe "mainstream religions" are viewed in a very negitive light. Very very sad.

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esoterica
post Feb 11 2007, 08:48 AM
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"A court report found that both parents are pagans who send their now 10-year-old son to a Catholic school. In May, Jones said neither he nor his ex-wife had taken the boy to any Wiccan rituals since the order was issued."

mother of all on a roller coaster! yikes and jeepers both apply here i think

shows the huge amount of pagan in them, don't it

i'm more sad for the poor kid that anyone in this case

time to take up a donation for the ferryman

e.


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Sagdili Urbara
post Apr 28 2007, 12:44 PM
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Many people here seem suprised that a case like this is going on(or was) going on in the US. Personally it isn't suprising at all. Compared to European countries, the US is actually pretty conservative in their beliefs similar to many countries in Latin America when it comes to religion. However even in Latin America at times, there isn't much conservative thoughts in terms of sexuality, and expressing it. In the US you see this conservative way of thinking due to the fact that there is still a strong foundation in the puritan beliefs. Since the puritians were some of the first Europeans to truely settle in the US is it realy any suprise?

Yes the Spanish did bring the inquisition the Southern US, and to Latin America... Yet puritian ideology was held more strongly especially since many immigrant Catholic were being discriminated.

Just my opinion...


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paxx
post Oct 25 2007, 04:37 PM
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I am a very big on personal rights, so this stinks big time on my radar, however it ended up fine. The system worked. Same goes with most things religious based in the US. The first amendment is currently alive and strong (accept at airports or any area with a lot of people).

Now, at the same time, we have this huge cross culture of puritans. And lets face it, in a democracy, mob rules, and in a representative republic mob rules with some oversight.

Keeping the child in a catholic school and giving him the choice of beliefs when he is 18 has nothing to do with the court case. The judge placed a restriction on the parents (not the child) they fought the restriction. I think what they are did/doing is fine on most every level. Parents should not force their beliefs on their children. They should mold them and prepare them to be independent thinking members of a society.

How that is done, is arguable by anyone, but the last thing pagans who complain about Christian indoctrination should do is start pagan indoctrination. Let people decide their belief structure as the grow up and become independent thinkers.

But when it comes to religion, I honestly don’t know a country that is more free and accepting then the US currently; not Germany, not France, not Austria, probably most of Europe has some heavy restrictions on religion but not sure. England limits the throne of England to one religion. Now most let people practice freely, but most have big restrictions on starting a religion.

This is not to say that mistakes are not made, judges are people, and when a mistake is made it needs to be corrected.

The only current religious issue that I am aware of in the US is marriage issues and drug use, though in most cases the drugs are ok in places of worship.


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Pandora
post Oct 26 2007, 12:51 AM
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Is anyone besides me more worried about how the Catholics have entire schools full of children forced into being a captive audience for their Christian doctrine? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fool.gif)


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paxx
post Oct 26 2007, 10:23 AM
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Compared to not being indoctrinated where?

Unless you are home schooling, someone is indoctrinating your kids for sure from grade three on up. Hell, you are certainly indoctrinating your kids.

Catholic Nuns are usually pretty good people, I have only met a few whose company I really did not enjoy.

Priests are a very different matter for me, there I usually see the extremes of both sides. Or people I have no feeling for one way or the other.

Of the big Christian Faiths in the US, the Catholics are the least likely to try and convert you. There are some branches that are trying to become more protestant and evangelical, but it is a response to the evangelicals eating into their followers.


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ComaOfLoss
post Nov 19 2007, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE(paxx @ Oct 26 2007, 12:37 AM) *
But when it comes to religion, I honestly don’t know a country that is more free and accepting then the US currently; not Germany, not France, not Austria, probably most of Europe has some heavy restrictions on religion but not sure. England limits the throne of England to one religion. Now most let people practice freely, but most have big restrictions on starting a religion.


Just to say that there are no restrictions in most of the European countries. Exception being Poland (which is a heavily catholic country).

In fact for example in Finland where I'm from, if you don't want belong to the church anymore you can do it by sending an email.
(And tens of thousands of people have done just that).

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paxx
post Nov 19 2007, 10:45 PM
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I’m not saying that you would notice it as a standard citizen. But there are restrictions, as to what religions you can belong to. That you are forced into one religion is frightful, there are few countries left that do that.

But in the USA you can start any religion you want as long as you have 13 people and a place of worship. If you worship a person they have to be dead 50 years…there are a few other stipulations but not many.

Freedom of religion is just that, you can choose to believe what you want and how you want. Europe is far from that. In Europe you mostly have freedom from religion, meaning you are not mandated to be religious, but not of religion.


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ComaOfLoss
post Nov 20 2007, 09:08 AM
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QUOTE(paxx @ Nov 20 2007, 06:45 AM) *
I’m not saying that you would notice it as a standard citizen. But there are restrictions, as to what religions you can belong to. That you are forced into one religion is frightful, there are few countries left that do that.

But in the USA you can start any religion you want as long as you have 13 people and a place of worship. If you worship a person they have to be dead 50 years…there are a few other stipulations but not many.

Freedom of religion is just that, you can choose to believe what you want and how you want. Europe is far from that. In Europe you mostly have freedom from religion, meaning you are not mandated to be religious, but not of religion.


Hmm, I actually got interested to find out how things really are. According to law in Finland, you can start your own religion if:

At least 20 over 18 years old people can start a registered religious community. To register a religious community you need to inform the Patent and Registration Office.

The Freedom of Religion board working under the Ministry of Education gives the Patent and Registration Office their statement if the community is against the Freedom of Religion law.

Religious communities can apply for a right to hold weddings.


Taken from the Ministry of Education web pages. (The term "religious community" means any religious organization, including the evangelical lutheran and orthodox churces).

TBH, this is one of those things where you really can't talk about Europe as a whole.

If you're truly interested, here are some links:

Registered religious organisations in Finlandhttp://www.uskonnot.fi/english/byreligion

The Religions in Finland Projecthttp://www.uskonnot.fi/english/

One of the registered communities:http://www.azazel.fi/english.shtml

This post has been edited by ComaOfLoss: Nov 20 2007, 09:26 AM

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paxx
post Nov 20 2007, 11:06 PM
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You are totally right in I should not take Europe as a whole. Very poor form on my part. Thank you for looking into it.

It is just freedom of religion issues are pretty big here when they happen, the story of the parents being told that they can not give religious tutelage to their child was big in many none “Big 5” religious circles.

Silly and ill-informed rulings come down every day. However, they are usually fixed within the judicial system.

What is amusing to me is how often people do not know what the laws are in their country.

In the US church/religious status is important as it provides tax exempt status. also it allows certain exemptions of laws in order to allow for the free practice of said religion. Many religions have been formed here for the free use of certain drugs. There are many legal battles, but for the most part they side on the behalf of the religion.

Where this is almost never the case is when the state or federal government can show exploitation or possible harm of a minor. So that accusation is often used in those cases. A big example of this is currently in Arizona and Utah where there is a splinter organization of the Mormon faith. There it is common for men to have more then one wife.

While this practice is illegal in both states, there is no way to prosecute them based on religious freedoms, so they have gone after the church based on exploitation of minors. Forcing a 15 year old to marry a 40+ year old was the first attempt and that failed. They later went after the leader of the church with the accomplice to rape charge. That seems to have stuck for now.

This post has been edited by paxx: Nov 20 2007, 11:08 PM


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