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 Witchcraft Vs. Sorcery
Thorn
post Sep 30 2006, 10:04 PM
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Hey, I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the differences between sorcery and witchcraft. The terms 'Witch' and 'Sorcerer' both boil down to 'magick-users', but witchcraft and sorcery here have been put in two seperate categories. I was just curious as to what you think seperate the two paths, or if there is any seperation at all.

This post has been edited by Thorn: Sep 30 2006, 10:04 PM

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esoterica
post Oct 1 2006, 08:20 AM
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QUOTE(Thorn @ Sep 30 2006, 11:04 PM) *
Hey, I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the differences between sorcery and witchcraft. The terms 'Witch' and 'Sorcerer' both boil down to 'magick-users', but witchcraft and sorcery here have been put in two seperate categories. I was just curious as to what you think seperate the two paths, or if there is any seperation at all.


most like likely answered before somewhere in the forums, but here goes anyway...

at least in the popular literature of my day, the difference lay in the adherence to the chosen path - to step over the line of proper white, black or even gray magick into a self-driven intercessory path was to set foot into the purple energy of conceited and egotistical-oriented sorcery which culminates only in the quest for power for power's sake without regard to anything but self and the fulfillment of nothing but self-desire

in that simplistic view of the topic, withchcraft would be service-to-others (including service-to-self), sorcery would be only egotistical, greedy service-only-for-self without regard for anything else

E.


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DarK
post Oct 11 2006, 12:56 PM
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http://theheartofdarknesss.tripod.com/id25.html

That's a good page that discusses "Sorcery vs. Witchcraft". And esoterica was also very right.

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Acid09
post Oct 11 2006, 05:10 PM
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Personally I've always associated sorcerors with naming magick, particularly spells, conjuring and lore or bibliomancy. And witchcraft is more nature based dealing with some of the same things as socrery but more involved with natural elements of their craft.

I've also learned in general that its easier to just use the same deffinition for different labels. It can keep things much more simplistic. So witch, sorceror, mage, magician ect ect in the simplistic form all mean the same thing to me.


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Venefica
post Nov 4 2006, 04:29 PM
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A teatcher of mine said that sorcery is doing magick for spiritual development, or for your own sake or strictly practical things, while witchcraft is more religious.

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Ilmatar
post Nov 5 2006, 06:04 PM
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Witchcraft is a lot more structured than sorcery. In witchcraft you live by a specific code or set of principals whereas in sorcery you do not have these boundries. The practitioner of sorcery effectively makes his or her own rules.

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Thorn
post Nov 5 2006, 08:40 PM
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Out of everything said here I think that last post makes the most sense, but I also agree that really whichever title you choose is what feels right to you. Thanks a lot:)

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ThirdDimension
post Feb 17 2007, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE(Thorn @ Sep 30 2006, 11:04 PM) *
Hey, I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the differences between sorcery and witchcraft. The terms 'Witch' and 'Sorcerer' both boil down to 'magick-users', but witchcraft and sorcery here have been put in two seperate categories. I was just curious as to what you think seperate the two paths, or if there is any seperation at all.


Well here in our country, "Sorcerers" do "Witchcraft"..

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Mezu
post Feb 17 2007, 03:40 PM
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"Well here in our country, "Sorcerers" do "Witchcraft".."

Semantics, really. Since I think of Witchcraft as Wicca, therefore a legit religion that happens to practice magick (what I'd call low magick -- not in the derogatory sense, just in the sense of "nature-oriented", sympathetic and energetic-active, versus high magick which is more developmental or "magick for the sake of improving, willing change and exploring" Then, this just becomes a language debate.

I'd throw in another term, Magus, who would be focused on high magick (developmental, advancing knowledge, enlightenment, choose your terms). So, Wicca (witchcraft) is a religion that practices magick (sometimes), Sorcerers who practice magick without necessarily focusing primarily on religion (if at all) and the Magus (who seeks a path to higher knowledge and advancement of self and/or enlightenment and is very rarely focused on religion.

Or, a metaphor (not literal):
Witch -- a person who seeks solutions from a religious dogma (albeit a loose one)
Sorcerer — an engineer who can apply solutions
Magus — a scientist who can prove or create solutions.

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Noohn-Kehk
post Feb 18 2007, 12:36 AM
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Witchcraft, in various historical, anthropological, religious and mythological contexts, is the use of certain kinds of alleged supernatural or magical powers.

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft

Magic and sorcery are the influencing of events, objects, people and physical phenomena by mystical, paranormal or supernatural means. The terms can also refer to the practices employed by a person to wield this influence, and to beliefs that explain various events and phenomena in such terms.

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(paranormal)

In my personal opinion and reading this definitions they are the same thing/occurence/event or phenomenon

This post has been edited by Noohn-Kehk: Feb 18 2007, 12:39 AM

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Xenomancer
post Feb 18 2007, 11:18 AM
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QUOTE
Or, a metaphor (not literal):
Witch -- a person who seeks solutions from a religious dogma (albeit a loose one)
Sorcerer — an engineer who can apply solutions
Magus — a scientist who can prove or create solutions.


And what makes a Sage?


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-I find it interesting that we as scholars of metaphysics have no problem discussing the intricacies of the threads of reality, but when it comes to the things that really matter, we forget them. - Xenomancer
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Xenomancer
post Feb 19 2007, 05:11 PM
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Found a solution: Sage = Sorcerer+Mage

Sorcerer+Mage=Sage

QUOTE
Sorcerer — an engineer who can apply solutions
Magus — a scientist who can prove or create solutions.


In the case of a sorcerer being one that "does" and "executes" (similar to, in my belief, LHP dynamic), (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif) and a mage being one that "knows" (via Chokmah path/RHP in this same respect of thinking), (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mf_bookread.gif) then the utilization of both in and of the midpoint would be the crown sphere, thus a Sage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

This may run congruent with about all depictions of sages in virtually any belief.


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¡HA HA! ¡ESTOY USANDO EL INTERNET!
-Never learn the Art of Sword before the Art of Dance. - Celtic Proverb
-Even with spiritual power, an unchecked ego will only seek to deify itself. - Frank MacEowen
-One cannot traverse waters without causing waves. - Xenomancer
-I find it interesting that we as scholars of metaphysics have no problem discussing the intricacies of the threads of reality, but when it comes to the things that really matter, we forget them. - Xenomancer
-This world is your home. We have a mix of everything here. If you want better, make better. There's no rule of going elsewhere for the tools. That's what magick is about. - Xenomancer

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Mezu
post Feb 19 2007, 05:36 PM
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Found a solution: Sage = Sorcerer+Mage


TOTALLY, although I might add another attribution to the mix -- stepping aside from etymology of the word. I think of Sage as MASTERS -- MASTERY. I always think of the sage as a MASTER of the art.

By the way, the origin of Sage is Middle English, originally from Old French and Latin... SAPERE , which means "BE WISE"

Of course, that's also the definition of WIZZARD... which came from Middle English WISE and ARD

Cool.

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Noohn-Kehk
post Feb 20 2007, 09:25 AM
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What's a Xenomancer? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/7.gif)

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Xenomancer
post Feb 20 2007, 09:31 AM
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QUOTE(Noohn-Kehk @ Feb 20 2007, 10:25 AM) *
What's a Xenomancer? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)


Addressed in a different thread. Forgot which one.


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¡HA HA! ¡ESTOY USANDO EL INTERNET!
-Never learn the Art of Sword before the Art of Dance. - Celtic Proverb
-Even with spiritual power, an unchecked ego will only seek to deify itself. - Frank MacEowen
-One cannot traverse waters without causing waves. - Xenomancer
-I find it interesting that we as scholars of metaphysics have no problem discussing the intricacies of the threads of reality, but when it comes to the things that really matter, we forget them. - Xenomancer
-This world is your home. We have a mix of everything here. If you want better, make better. There's no rule of going elsewhere for the tools. That's what magick is about. - Xenomancer

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Noohn-Kehk
post Mar 10 2007, 12:16 AM
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QUOTE(WyrdScience @ Feb 20 2007, 12:31 PM) *
Addressed in a different thread. Forgot which one.


see, anyone has info on it please? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif)

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UnKnown1
post Mar 11 2007, 02:43 AM
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Greetings,

Witchcraft is a religion whereas sorcery does not have to be religious at all. Sorcery is a process of self transformation. Witchraft and sorcery in my mind have about as much in common as apples and oranges.

Peace!

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catsraven
post Mar 11 2007, 01:41 PM
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Witchcraft is not a religion. Wicca is. Do not confuse the two. I practice a variety of crafts including witchcraft and it is not religious. I am not wiccan. Religion has no part in what I do magically.


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UnKnown1
post Mar 11 2007, 02:44 PM
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Greetings 'catsraven,


Given that no matter what form of Witchcraft you practice it descended from the pagan faith of Europe. I am sure that there are many self proclaimed witches who do not view it as a religion. I have even met a few individuals who claimed to be Warlocks. Which seems silly as its supposedly a bad word.

As one who has never danced around naked under the moonlight and never hugged a tree my vantage point on Witchcraft may be a bit different than yours. All of the serious Witches that I have ever met worshiped the Goddess Moon and the Horned God.

I view Witchcraft as liberalism in the magick world. Supposedly it is one party but in reality its like a dragon with 1000 heads each thinking differently. For example the DIanic Witches which I met seemed radical in thinking compared to the WIccans.

If you are a solitary Witch and you think that the Moon Goddess and the Horned God are a bunch of malarkey I suppose there is nothing wrong with that. To each his or her own. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

What I am referring to is that all modern Witchcraft whether you like it or not has a religious base. Whereas Sorcery comes from multiple Sources and not necessarily religious ones.

If you put the two on the scales and measured them then there are a ton more WItches who are religious than there are Sorcerers. Sorcerers are more likely to believe in nothing is what I am getting at.

Peace!

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catsraven
post Mar 11 2007, 04:29 PM
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Greetings Edunpanna,

Witchcraft to me is spell casting, not a religion. Religion is the worship of deity. Thats just the way I see it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I don't worship any deity. I think they have problems enough with out me asking for what is probably insignificant to them. I can do most of what I would ask for my self. So why bother them?


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Khenti_Amenti
post Apr 28 2007, 10:27 AM
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It is true that Warlock was used as a bad word or in a derogatory sence.
However, the same could be said about Witch.

The etymology of the word is disputed.
The main candidates being :
"Vaer loega"- Deciver or liar.
Or "Varda lokkur"- Spirit caller.

Etymology of Sorcerer seems to be from the Latin word "Sors"- Fate.
So a sorcerer should be someone who affects fate.

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shamanwizard
post Oct 31 2007, 10:41 AM
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QUOTE(Mezu @ Feb 17 2007, 05:40 PM) *
"Well here in our country, "Sorcerers" do "Witchcraft".."

Semantics, really. Since I think of Witchcraft as Wicca, therefore a legit religion that happens to practice magick (what I'd call low magick -- not in the derogatory sense, just in the sense of "nature-oriented", sympathetic and energetic-active, versus high magick which is more developmental or "magick for the sake of improving, willing change and exploring" Then, this just becomes a language debate.

I'd throw in another term, Magus, who would be focused on high magick (developmental, advancing knowledge, enlightenment, choose your terms). So, Wicca (witchcraft) is a religion that practices magick (sometimes), Sorcerers who practice magick without necessarily focusing primarily on religion (if at all) and the Magus (who seeks a path to higher knowledge and advancement of self and/or enlightenment and is very rarely focused on religion.

Or, a metaphor (not literal):
Witch -- a person who seeks solutions from a religious dogma (albeit a loose one)
Sorcerer — an engineer who can apply solutions
Magus — a scientist who can prove or create solutions.

I think this is the closest to my opinion, even thought I also think that sorcery could be, if not use in other way, for obtaining more power than what you got.......magus or magician its more into obtaining more wisdom, but its all the same to me, because sometimes wisdom its power (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)


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shamanwizard
post Oct 31 2007, 10:57 AM
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QUOTE(catsraven @ Mar 11 2007, 06:29 PM) *
Greetings Edunpanna,

Witchcraft to me is spell casting, not a religion. Religion is the worship of deity. Thats just the way I see it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I don't worship any deity. I think they have problems enough with out me asking for what is probably insignificant to them. I can do most of what I would ask for my self. So why bother them?

actually, sorcery, wizardry,and even shamanism may also include spell casting and spell crating, it depends on what you want to use them for.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)


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"A wizard can turn fear into joy, frustration to fulfillment. A wizard can turn the time-bound into the timeless. A wizard can carry you beyond limitations into the boundless"------Deepack Chopra

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paxx
post Oct 31 2007, 01:02 PM
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I happen to fall in the semantics of all of these things. They all have different meaning in different contexts.

How I define things generally.

Witch= very practical, little or no ceremony
Shaman= not quite so practical, willing to travel to other realms for answers.
Sorcerer/es = start to get into the ceremonial, flashy
Alchemist=focus on change and transformation, and the things that bring that about.
Magi = very much ceremonial, looks for significance in everything they do, always more then one reason.
Wizard= generally more cerebral, more focused on lore then magic, but well versed no matter.


Now those are how I think of them currently, tomorrow that may change. Also we are not including the controversial ones like Warlock and such. In essence a magic user is a magic user. The approach and the title they choose is the title they choose. It is like arguing waste disposal technician Vs. Garbage Man only much more broadly as we are talking about 500+ years of connotations.

We can view it from the negative Vs. positive perspective.

Witch = 75/25 in lore and such, witches generally are negatively portrayed, until recent times.
Shaman = 25/75 usually well portrayed or indifferently
Sorcerer = 75/25 generally negative portrayal
Alchemist= 50/50 can go both ways
Magi= 50/50 generally well portrayed early on or in short stories, but shown in a different light later, taking on a different title usually.
Wizards= 25/75 usually positive connotation.

We can go on and on about misunderstandings and such, but the meaning of a word is the consensus of its meaning where you say it.

For example at Christian Revival Camp witch will not mean the same as at Pagan Nature Celebration Camp.

Now for people to take on a title and then be angered that the population in general has a negative opinion of it is idiotic in my opinion.

Witch-doctor and Shaman can pretty much mean the same thing…shaman has a much better rep.

The term cleric is nice in this, it means any member of the clergy…yet it has been used generally to describe Islamic clergy, as most did not know the titles in the Islamic faith. Now I have begun to notice it in any negative story about Christian clergy. Part if it is the need to not use a title that others may identify positively with. Minister means positive for many people, as does priest. But at the same time Deacon is an odd one for many. So Cleric is the most correct general term, but it’s uses of late and thus its connotation is becoming negative.

One reason for this is Minister X may have had the title of Minister but was an advisor to Church Y. When a newspaper says that Rev. X Minster at Church Y did A,B and C to a mother of 4…then Church Y sues on slander charges saying he was never a minister at Church Y. So it is much safer to say “a Cleric” at church Y when the possibility of slander charges are involved.

So what is Sorcery? Is the big question here. The most common definition that can separate it from the others is the use of spirits for magical ends.

However, ultimately when someone tells me they are anything on the list above, I ask them what that means.

I admit I usually pretend to be ignorant as to what it can mean, but come on it is so much more fun to put them on the spot.
“Oh, so you’re a wizard…you mean like Gandalf and Dumboldor?”
“oh, so no shooting lighting out of your hands…I see, so what do you mean by wizard?”

Depending on circumstance I can keep this going a while, as long as no one asks me a question that exposes me as knowing more then I am letting on, or I have to start lying, and I would only do that if I had no interest in seeing this person again.

So, what is sorcery, as far as sorcerers and sorceresses go?


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flyingmojo
post Oct 31 2007, 10:44 PM
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I think it does all come down to semantics and perspective.
Chumbley's definition of sorcery is my fave. He defined magick as "the transmutabiliy of the quintessence of all nature" and sorcery as "the knowledge of the Points of Universal Transmutation. Its Arte is to cultivate the ability to manipulate these foci of power in accordance with Will, Desire and Belief.”

So I think sorcery is more of a kind of science, occult science. And I think many kinds of witchcraft are indeed sorcery. I think also too many Wiccans have monopolized the word witchcraft. It's also not just used to denote the European tradition. Generally, one can use the word witchcraft to signify a kind of magickal work that is either more based on the land, or less based in any kind of occult science and more just on one's personal abilities, experiences and outlook. But one can use the same definition for a sorcerer. Also, I think sorcery is not ceremonial in the same way witchcraft can be, for some. Also, witchcraft usually has some kind of basis in folklore and mythology <Hecate, for instance> whereas sorcery usually does not.


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Einstein

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MaleWitch
post May 1 2011, 01:15 AM
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QUOTE(Thorn @ Sep 30 2006, 11:04 PM) *

Hey, I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the differences between sorcery and witchcraft. The terms 'Witch' and 'Sorcerer' both boil down to 'magick-users', but witchcraft and sorcery here have been put in two seperate categories. I was just curious as to what you think seperate the two paths, or if there is any seperation at all.

To me they are both the same. You can't have one without the other. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/connie_witchy.gif)

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VitalWinds
post May 1 2011, 05:17 PM
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Witchcraft- spells, potions, astrology, evocation, invocation

Sorcery- energy manipulation, alchemy(of sorts), psychokinesis, pyrokinesis, evocation, invocation


....in my mind, anyway.


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Peace.

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