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 Introduction To Demons, tips...
blasphemy2000
post Oct 27 2006, 03:28 PM
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Ok, first of all. I would like to start this thread to clear up some misconceptions abour daemons (demons). A) they are not ugly, most actually are VERY beautiful creatures. B) They do NOT and nor have they EVER "fell from grace". THat is a christian concept and has no merit in demonolatry. There are heirarchies just like angels, if you believe in those sort of things. But instead of using Seraphim, Thrones, Virtues, etc...they use crown prince, duke, earl, etc... When summoning a DEMON, do NOT try to control or command it. Using triangles, circles, names of "god" or whatever is VERY disrespectful and will end in disaster, I assure you of it. The Goetia (L.K.O.S) is a jewish-christian book. The demons are no longer bound and they are free. Therefore, the goetia is pointless, while some demonolators still use it in reference to hell's heirarchy. Most have adopted Dukante's.

Also, when evoking a demon, "invoking" is considered rude...do NOT treat the sigil incorrectly. Properly burn it in a sacrificial fire, or keep it for further use. You may also bury it. Thank the demon for helping you and then dismiss it, it will usually require a sacrifice. (No, not baby flesh, or other stereotypical stuff...) but a drop of blood will do, since they require life force, blood has a good bit in it to sustain them. But it isnt the only way, be creative *smirk* I guess that is all for now. Please be careful and dont summon "just for fun or kicks"

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bym
post Oct 27 2006, 05:33 PM
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Greetings Blasphemy2000!
Demons, daemons, daimons, etc. You are wielding a very generalized stick. I've tried to actually nail down the origin of the word, demonaltry, and have come up with alot of vagueries, most of which have their roots in Christian ecclesiastical rede. Not particularily satisfying.
There are malevolent beings that can be ascribed to the very loose term of 'demon' and there are those entities which can be termed 'daemons' who are not malevolent. It has been the unfortunate happenstance that certain faiths look upon various spiritual (and otherwise) beings as Demonic. In accordance with most of the worlds major religons the term 'demon' denotes something bad or evil (a rather subjective term). Already you are facing a conflicting view. Wouldn't it be easier to just call it something else? Newage delights in this and you'd find yourself amidst throngs of avid learners...but no...we must perpetuate a stereotype! To be a Demonaltrer is not necessarily to be a 'Satanist'. I know quite a few 'Satanists'...they mostly idolize aberant lifestyles and most worship the distaff side of the Christian ethos. Call them 'rebels'. Most are not evil though they love to ape the trappings of what the local religon considers evil. It all balances out.
You have become, of late, the poster boy for Demonaltry. A Champion of the Cause! I applaud your zeal!
We all know that the roots of the Goetia are murky with innuendo placed by a variety of disparate priests of the Invogue God! Baal actually translates into 'Boss' and Hauros/Flauros could very well be a hawk of Egyptian origin. But please, don't even try to 'fluff' up Pazuzu or any number of other entities in the name of righteousness. Sometimes the entity is just plain MEAN! Granted, the interactions of humans with non-humans can have some very unintentional deleterious effect! Even elementals can be hazardous to your health! We must use caution and knowledge to understand these beings! Some should never try evocation at all (IMHO).
You have made a number of incorrect assumptions in your zealous posts...one of which I hope to end. That is the one regarding the Triangle of the Art. The 'holy' names are an addition from a later time. It is the SHAPE which is of importance! It represents MANIFESTATION! PERIOD. Well....that is the very simplified definition!
I am very interested in researching 'Demonaltry' and would be very grateful if you can point me toward some of your source material? It wasn't until I became a Mod here that I ever heard of the word! I hope that the material dates back before the seventies and Lavey as this was one of the first Newage regurgitations and it's getting mighty deep in here! Thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif)


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DarK
post Oct 27 2006, 09:44 PM
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He's right about what he's saying, Demons ARE Dark Gods which were worshipped in ancient times before the influence of religion took over, thus leading to the spiritual degression of our race.

The Dark Gods and "darkness" itself is from the Acausal and these are the bringers of knowledge to the human race. For years these Dark Gods (known as Demons now) have given the human race knowledge and worked with them side by side.

It is sad to see (due to lack of knowledge), some grimoires such as the Key of Solomen encourage the use of Angelic names and sigils to envoke Demons by force and fear, when infact these Demons were very close with humans at times, and still are with the open minded that acknowledge them.

New Age usually lacks the knowledge profound during the ancient times, and thus, they look at these Demons as mere entities that are meant to do what the magician asks them "by force", and they take them for granted.

As Blasphemy2000 said, the spirits of the Acausel are misunderstood and require opened minds and respect, as they were the ones who brought knowledge and spirituality to the human race, whilst the light were those who answered prayers.


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bym
post Oct 27 2006, 11:16 PM
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Thanks! *grin* I've been around the block with this stuff for over 40 years....practicing. I know intimately the subject matter. BUT, it nevers hurts to hear what others are saying/believing. Again, I ask that you help me understand what you are saying by pointing me towards some source material....preferably pre 1970.
I do disagree with you on a number of issues. Not all demons were gods, dark or light. Conversally, not all angels were gods, dark or light. A time favored magical tradition is to utilize the Assumption of the Godform to accentuate a (any/all) magical ritual (which includes evocation). This power boost is not contrary to a demon.(Subjucation of a 'person' is abhorrent, IMHO, but that can be debated.) Humans mistake that these entities have human emotions and feelings. Some do, most do not. This is how they can get 'bad' reputations (other than the standard InVogue God religon at-the-time spin). Madness from exposure to certain entities is a real problem...your mind, you see, isn't like their mind'...unless you have a very firm imprint of your own psyche then it is very dangerous of you to be mucking about with alien telepathy.
The concept of Hierarchy is rather interesting. Why? Humans love to have hierarchies....it helps them to focus. A spiritual entity that claims they are a 'Duke' etc. has been 'humanized' abit. It is something to ponder on long winter nights. *grin*
Anyway, source material or directions please? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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palindroem
post Oct 28 2006, 05:56 AM
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Sorry Bym . . no source material here (yet)

Actually, hierarchy isn't just a humanized characteristic. There are many "natural" organizations that imploy hierarchical social systems, ie. reqrowth of devegetated area's, bee society, herd structuring, canine social behavior--to a degree almost any large mammal. Many include certain aspects of force or threat to maintain the order of stucture and social cohesion.
Plus the basic phenomenom of stratification is nearly "universal". As we see geologic strata, floral stratification, physio-density stratification,nuclear, solar, mental (old school, but useful), class/cast stratification. These also are formed by compelling "force".
Perhaps humans have a limited ability to understand an inherently recognize hierarchy in the daemon "world", therefore misplacing a human hierarchical system (feudal nobility) on an otherwise hierarchically organized group.
(I don't think I'm actually argueing against you . . . I think we may actually be more aligned then the above appears)

Additionally, Leitch presents the Keys as basically a type of shamanic-based system brought to the middle ages. In that system, humans hold a middle ground in a three world cosmology. Now honestly, that shamanic tradition is an approach with a slightly older history then even most peoples opinion of "The Ancient Religions" touted as the place were "demons" were worshipped as gods.
(and if you want bym, I could go through Leitch's book and try to pull some pre-1970 ref's --- but just for YOU!!)

This post has been edited by palindroem: Oct 28 2006, 06:01 AM


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bym
post Oct 28 2006, 07:09 AM
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Palindroem, I don't think that I could have said it better! Thanks...
In my experience, I have not encountered a hive mind within spiritual entities, but that in no way means squat! I have encountered beings who will not transgress over certain others 'territories', in you will. Wether or not that implies a hierarchal structuring or even a societal structuring remains to be seen. It is curious though that when most of the work compiled on 'demons' was taking place, our human condition appears to have been mirrored onto the 'entities' involved. I might go so far as to speculate as to the actual existance of said demons as separate beings and not merely projections of the human condition through a 'supra'consciousness/overmind...which would explain the transference of our human emotional states to these 'beings' ... But, I digress. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)


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Radiant Star
post Oct 28 2006, 10:31 AM
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I doubt I am even 'qualified' enough to be in this thread really and I have resisted since I saw it appear, but my willpower is obviously lacking ; )

A magickian I knew had contact with all kinds of entities, he rarely encountered problems and mostly he had useful experiences; the entities did not fall into neat categories of good angel or bad demon, in fact, he had a few surprises of an angel giving him a hard time and a demon coming along one evening, unsummoned I might add to help and advise him. I was brand new to magick when he talked about this and I came to realize that it may very well be 'as below, so above' in that there are beings down here that some get along with and find them to be absolutely charming and kind, yet others find those same people to be 'demonic'. What I am saying is that loosely, it is likely to be a case of taking each as you find unless many have clearly found the entity you want to have dealings with dangerous.

I have often read about dragons being bad creatures and there are tales of people killing these 'terrible' creatures and yet my dragon is a most gentle and benign creature; having said that, I am glad he is my ally, since I have seen him move fiercely towards things I cannot see. Of course, he may just be fattening me up and preparing the stuffing and sauce as we speak...

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palindroem
post Oct 28 2006, 02:32 PM
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Bym, I get the same kind of impression. The greater context certainly seems to respond and function according to our individual (and cultural) expectations. Although I'm sure alot is simply post-phenomenally organized by my personal filter/censer/biases . . . I'm fairly comfortably convinced that the "world" is abliging to present itself however I "tick".

RS, it sounds similar to concepts of planetary spirits. Its not uncommon to see/hear them referred to as evil. As far as I can tell, evil is simply a shallow way of percieving the uncontrolled nature of some force . . . hence the need for planetary intellegences.
Personally, I tend to look at (most) "demons" as personified forces, albeit uncontrolled . . . but thats simply because of shortcomings in the magicians, not an inherent deficiency of the "demon". Perhaps dragons are similar, yours having a relationship with you might be providing it a level of "force management".

mmm . . . RS with stuffing and sauce . . . gurgle gurgle
(sorry, that wasn't suppose to come-off sounding suggestive that way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) doh! )

This post has been edited by palindroem: Oct 28 2006, 02:33 PM


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Radiant Star
post Oct 28 2006, 02:43 PM
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I find that interesting what you say Palindroem. If we are like gods, then I suppose we do offer a kind of management to the entities we summon, but what of their natural propensity?

If they were to be allowed to roam free without us controlling them within say a triangle, would they be evil or as you say, just operate in a different way from us that might be considered demonic by us, but natural to them and not at all bad.

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Shabatai
post Oct 29 2006, 12:17 AM
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so what would be the difference between lets say god (yhvh) an a demon (satan,azazal...pick one) i mean god did some pretty horrible things an on a broader scale, an hey what did dagon ever do to god any way.

i say demons are a lot like people in a way, see how you like being ordered around imprisoned an for what nothing at all but your own beliefs, youd probably fight back too, have a little respect.

now thats just thinking there beings, an not in your mind, if they are in your mind perhaps it doesnt matter then.

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palindroem
post Oct 29 2006, 06:21 AM
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QUOTE
I find that interesting what you say Palindroem. If we are like gods, then I suppose we do offer a kind of management to the entities we summon, but what of their natural propensity?

If they were to be allowed to roam free without us controlling them within say a triangle, would they be evil or as you say, just operate in a different way from us that might be considered demonic by us, but natural to them and not at all bad.


Well, even "like" gods may be alot of credit . . . though I do suppose we are like the representitives of the planetary Earth, sorta being the spirit and intellegence in relation to the seven and nine, with its own value of esoteric force inherent . . . management of certain forces should be assumed, I guess.
Though I'm not quite sure where to go with "what of their natural propensity?" . . . they (demons) would be forces, personified or not, they would express themselves irregardless . . . as a force they'd work on both 'cosms' . . . and would be managed (mitigated).
If the river is the force, are we the canyon that contains it . . the harder rock that directs its current . . or the larger perspective that enjoys the aesthetics of the managed force. I don't know . . . but the demons "natural propensity" seem rectified in the statement itself . . natural.

I guess I tend to steer away from the overtly liminal abstraction of (most) demons. To simply call them bad or evil is missing (and unappriciating) the value they provide as a force. On the other hand, to simply consider them misunderstood "good" guys takes for granted (and leaves unrespected) exactly what the thing is that operates in a personified context. It may be some form of naturally occuring universal function . . . but its got a mind and agenda of the "real" personified.
Touching your tongue to a 9volt may not be so bad . . . getting a tongue touch from a lightening-strike though . . . .
I know that my dog loves me and wants only my love and success (in dogy worldly ways) . . . but I know that when she's hungery, and in the middle of a fight with THE cat, if I stick my foot in the middle to break them up, without preparing her . . . her natural propensity may puncture my sole.
My sole may think its evil. I may think its bad. My wife might thunk me on the back of the head and begin to make me forget about any problem with my foot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bop.gif)
(though I'm not calling that "unmanaged" force evil either . . . at least not at the moment)

Although, I'm sure bym's right . . . some certainly are evil . . . or at the very least the personification of the force of evil.
(hmm, I bet I can split that hair from 30 yrds)
Form and Force, the Light and the Dark, Gods and Demons . . . .

QUOTE
so what would be the difference between lets say god (yhvh) an a demon (satan,azazal...pick one) i mean god did some pretty horrible things an on a broader scale, an hey what did dagon ever do to god any way.

i say demons are a lot like people in a way, see how you like being ordered around imprisoned an for what nothing at all but your own beliefs, youd probably fight back too, have a little respect.

now thats just thinking there beings, an not in your mind, if they are in your mind perhaps it doesnt matter then.

What would be the difference ... well, in all honesty . . . I'm not really sure.
To be really honest, I'm not sure I really know what a demon "is" either. And with reality (the noumenal reality)being so obligingly plastic . . . I'm not sure that even if I knew what the gods and demons were, if it would offer anything to anyone else.

But just for the sake of my fingers hitting keys and you being obligated to read the resulting mechanical noise . . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sculacciata.gif)
God (I assume you are of a modern Judeo-Xtain POV on that) is so all-inclusive that there wouldn't be any difference.
Yep, that god did some awful things . . creation, killing people, burning poor little bushes, giving pharohs the clap . . .
These worst thing I know that Dagon did was wear a fish on his head . . . . although it was a big fashion faux pa (in those days, fish wearing was replacing the "sheath" in the fashionable divine circles)
(just kidding Dag . . . you know I always liked that "fish on the head" look . . . right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Frankly . . . if their in our minds (IMO, thier there too) . . . I think it matters all the more.

but in the end, I Know Nothing

(are we still on-topic . . ? )

This post has been edited by palindroem: Oct 29 2006, 06:25 AM


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Acherusia
post Nov 17 2007, 12:03 PM
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Within the practice of Demonolatry there are many rites.

I work with demons in a meditative state. I also do divination true my Demonic friends and incorporate magic in which a request sometimes is burnt and incenses and candle magic is used. With their guidance I learned to create toughtforms, servitors, astral creations like for instance an astral temple.

For information purposes I copy pasted a little part of this sitehttp://www.ofs-demonolatry.org/faq.htm#demon
in witch I in general agree with.

Most Demonolaters accept that:

1. Everything in the universe is interconnected.
2. There are no such things as absolute good and evil. Rather, there are many subtle shades of gray.
3. Demonic entities are teachers/guides and deserve respect.
4. Demonolaters do not, therefore, conjure/evoke Demons against the Demon's will.
5. Satan is the whole, the Demons and ourselves are parts of the whole and therefore also divine.
6. We are responsible for our every action, and every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
7. We create our own reality (with the aid of the Demons or without it).
8. Spiritual growth and self discovery take place so long as one maintains a personal relationship with one’s patron/matron and the whole. i.e. The Demon is the guide that leads man to his Divine nature.
9. Belief, religion, and opinion are unique to each individual and based on individual experiences and ideas. One does not have to agree with everyone, but rather one should respect others’ rights to have their own beliefs, religion, and opinion without judging or condemning them.

So if you are interested in learning more go to http://www.ofs-demonolatry.org/


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Acid09
post Nov 20 2007, 06:49 PM
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The ancient greeks believed daimons (there equavilant of demons) were spirits with supernatural powers. They believed in cacodaimons and eudaimons. I believe the prefix "caco" means noisy or loud and may actually reffer to our conception of poltergiests. The "eu" prefix means benevolent. Therefore some daimons were malevolent and others were good. Of course the greeks weren't the only one's who believed in demons in one way or another. In almost every culture there are spirits that could be construted as "demons". Some are good others are bad.


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Acherusia
post Nov 21 2007, 03:31 AM
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Oh that is quit some generalising. Id like to take that a step furder for argument sake.

Demons, daimons, angels, spirits (making an other jump here) shadow(people), servitors, toughtforms, aliens…. And so on….

All entities in one way or an other.
They can be good or bad.
Well…. Let me refine that.
The can be good ‘for you’, or bad ‘for you’.

An entity that has proven to be bad for you, could be good for me and vice versa.

And yes, I have met an entity or two that were in essence bad mean doom and disaster. But at that time GOOD for me. Thy played key elements in my development and were instrumental in making me who I am today. And I’m grateful for who I am at this point. Wouldn’t have it any other way.


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Acid09
post Nov 23 2007, 07:03 PM
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You are correct to point out that the meaning of "good" and "bad" is relative.

For some good is moral, a set of standards that dictate right from wrong. Some may think its what gets you what you want/need. But this view lacks ethics. Sometimes getting what you want or need at the expense of others can be bad - thus the arguement shifts to maybe what is good benefits the most and causes the least amount of harm (in the long term and short term) and what is bad is what causes the most harm and benefits the least. But what does benefit mean? - Wealth, prosperity, pleasure, glory, power, love? What does harm mean? - pain, suffering, poverty, depravity, illness, perversion? Who's to say? Just more words with meanings that vary from one person to another.

For others still good = productive; bad = destructive. Then it can be argued that sometimes destruction is necessary for new, more fulling growth and sometimes over production can cause one to loose focus or neglect specific aspects as well as use up unnecessary resources - not to over generalize here. In which case what is bad can at times be good and good can sometimes be bad.

Good may simply be the most logical/rational and bad is then illogical/irrational - basically what makes the best sense is good and what makes the least sense is bad. - but who determines what makes sense and what doesn't? Reffer to Plato's allegory of the cave. What makes sense is based on perception, be it emperical or abstract. Yet again the common trend is that nobody's perceptions or concepts of abstract are exactly the same.

Good could be scientific too; what is good in science? "Provable" knowledge and "valid" theories. But then who's to say how you go about proving or validating magick, let alone demons? The problem with science and magick is that science is perverted into dogma and any theories that do not fit within the cannonical understanding of the universe is not valid, or provable.

And magick is so unscientific, to many but not all, that it merely becomes a fantacy, a world where nothing is true and everything is permitted. Then again is either such view entirely right or wrong? Or maybe the common denominator is a ying yang affect, without one there cannot be the other, and both share common elements. Therefore words like good and bad are merely adjectives used to share affinity or disdain, describe something as having positive vs negative qualities or the belief that something is right or wrong.

And thus concludes an overview of a semester's worth of ethics in a few short paragraphs.

Rerouting this back on topic - regardless if one percieves demons as good or bad the one thing I do believe is that demons do not care what we think. They are entities merely coexisting who have the ability to help or harm us, just as we do for our selves. Exactly what or who demons are is not set in stone and nothing we "know" of them is provable. There are many theories, some touted as facts but theories they are only none the less.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Nov 23 2007, 07:06 PM


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Acherusia
post Nov 24 2007, 06:55 AM
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I overall agree with your posting about the concept of good and bad. It has been theorized and talked about and tried to refine tot its essence over a thousand times if not millions by humans all over the world.

So commenting on your rerouting back on topic.
I would be a worthless demonolater if it did not make counter statement to your believe by propagating mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

I do believe demons care about what we think. Even more so I do believe demons care about what we feel. They do not ‘merely’ coexist. I also do believe they do not think as we think. Their thought process (for lack of a better word) is quite different. But they do generate perceivable emotions and can communicate, most of the time, by comprehendible means. And I have not build my believe on theories but experience.

Yes. I know you could argue my experiences, but I’m not going into that discussion because it is as extensive as it is futile. There is no fighting believe. That’s because I’m not fighting yours. You believe that they are entities that merely coexist and don’t care about us is yours. So lets agree to disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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azareth
post Apr 29 2009, 09:01 PM
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Its true,you dont have to be an evil person to work with demons,Demons are bound by God as everything else,some magicians such as Aleister crowley,summoned demons with rightous mind,when you work with demons ,know that they are very cunning,intelligent and not always gentle or good,some times they fool people and mess up their lives, remember that your connection with God is the only way to prevent being fooled by a demon,blood sustains demons and gives them an amount of life force,you have to have some sort of agreement with them,sometimes demons are invoked to be mastered, A.C was a demon master not a demon worshiper,that's one of the misconceptions about the man.

I have worked with demons by means of Goetia,the Demonic bible,voodoo,,and various other methods,The demons I encountered are not always good or gentle,some of them are gentle but some have an evil agenda,they fool the magicians by being kind to him/her,yet as a creature of God some are bound by love and respect,others are bound by curses I.e the curse of chains and so on,I came across a grimoire that belongs to the victorian period,which a freind of mine had,she had an original of the text and she didnt show it to anyone,I was able to take a look at it,there were seals,evocations,unfortunatly the grimoire was burned mysteriously.

As for offerings,you can use corrospondancies to detremine the best offering,use Liber 777 or let the demon itself tell you the best offering it needs,some demons require strange offerings,i remember a demon that requested chinese silk garment with the blood of a dragon on it..!! having no clue where to find a dragon,i invoked one and used my blood on the silk garment,it was accepted by the demon,music is a good offering.I remember a voodoo spell that went like, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/teu42.gif) you go to a crossroad with your guitar or musical instrument ,you play till a man passes by you and asks to play on your instrument,give it to him,he will play on it and then dissapear,after that you will become an expert of music.

a black hen's blood is widely used by many traditions,also sacrificing a ram on the moment of its orgasm ,can raise a demon.
Crowley did this on the abbey of thelema,he cut a goat's throat while the goat was fucking one of crowley's followers called lea hertzeg.

Remeber its you that must master the demon ,not vice versa (you have to be firm but not rude).
I also agree that this kind of invocation,evocation must not be used by people with no experience,sometimes disasters occur.
you have to be responsible for your actions,and accept the consequences.

Peace

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Ankhhape
post Apr 29 2009, 09:43 PM
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My understanding is that the word Daimon is the origin of our Demon / Daemon etc. Daimon is nothing more than a term for Principles / Spirits of the Universe. Nothing to do with the later concepts of demonology or Goetic ideas as well as nothing dark.


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Kheper-i kheper kheperu kheper-kuie
em kheperu en Khepri kheper em Sep Tepy

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