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 Golden Dawn And Thelema, Serious Issues
greenlantern153
post Apr 19 2014, 04:21 AM
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This easter-weekend post has the potential to deeply upset some folks, so consider carefully if you'd like to read it or not.

If you happen to be a serious golden dawn or thelema practitioner, and you're getting good results from either of those traditions, then do NOT read on! A discussion of some very concerning aspects of those traditions follows here that has the potential to ruin your faith in them.

You've been warned!

I was raised a christian, and before I renounced christianity I was a very serious christian. I had read the bible from cover to cover in multiple translations in multiple languages, including the original hebrew of the old testament. For those who don't know, the name of the god of the bible is in fact YHVH (Yahweh); his name just isn't seen in english translations because there is a tradition that the name is too holy to speak, and so whenever you see "the Lord" or "God" written in all caps, it means that in the original hebrew is written YHVH. Now, laid out in the bible are two covenants: the old and the new, and the devotee can choose either covenant to come into fellowship with YHVH. The old covenant is the covenant of orthodox judaism; it's extremely rigid and strict. The new covenant was instated by Christ (the son of YHVH), and is much more relaxed in nature, placing a lot of emphasis on things like love and faith rather than strict rules.

Although the bible is unclear about many issues, some of which include magic, it is perfectly clear regarding issues of things like idolatry (the worship or service or invocation of other gods), and it's also perfectly clear on the fact that YHVH will not have anything to do with you if you're outside of his two covenants. In both covenants, any kind of interaction with other gods is strictly forbidden by YHVH himself. I'm not going to quote the relevant bible verses here, I'm too lazy to look it all up, but if you've ever read the bible from front to back, the impression that YHVH is a jealous god is pretty much burned into your mind. He does not allow any kind of offerings to other spirits or gods, nor worship or adoration. In fact, devotees are advised not to even take the names of other gods upon their lips (psalms 16:4). Read the prophets of the old testament to get an idea of YHVH's feelings on the matter.

Then arrives the hermetic order of the golden dawn. Now, I haven't read all there is to read on GD and Thelema, but I've read enough of their rituals to know that these entire traditions seem to be carefully constructed systems of blasphemy against YHWH. That's right; I said BLASPHEMY. And I feel certain that the people who crafted the rituals knew this and intented it to be so.

There are a number of passages that strictly forbid sun-worship in the bible, and as I've said, the worship of other gods. Yet egyptian gods, and others such as baphomet and pan, are invoked ritually. See Crowley's solar adorations for sun-worship. At the beginning of any ritual, the LBRP is performed, which begins with the Qabalistic Cross, which includes the "our father" prayer of Christ in hebrew (for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory forever), and various hebrew names of YHVH are vibrated. The INRI formula as well is a perversion of a christian concept. (The word was written on Christ's cross.) And of course, the thing that bothers me the most, is that the aim of magical practice is to be symbolically taken into the cup of babylon. Anyone who has read the bible will know that babylon, especially as represented in the book of revelations, symbolizes the spiritual enemy of YHVH. In other words, the aim is to become fully integrated into the enemy of YHVH! All the while using his name in rituals for power and protection, and then also invoking other gods.

If the judeo-christian cosmology was real in the objective sense, then there couldn't be a worse way to oppose YHVH than to engage the practices of either GD or Thelema. It's like a demonic joke played on practitioners. Its blasphemy is never revealed in the practices, but it's undeniably there. Satan would be very pleased with a system like this, because its practitioners for the most part seem to be undiscerning.

Now, if you happen to be left hand path and blasphemy is your thing, then that's fine, I have no problem with that. However, for you right hand path guys who are interested in things like ascension and divinity, you might want to seriously consider what you're doing when you take part of their rituals.

Peace.

(If I've confused concepts from GD and Thelema I apologize, I'm not fully versed in them.)

This post has been edited by Green Lantern: Apr 19 2014, 12:37 PM


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Blutengel
post Oct 7 2014, 02:08 AM
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i can kinda understand where your coming from. there does seem to be a more than necessary focus on snakes and light, which kinda weirds me out. don't get me wrong i can understand the symbolic value of these things, but within the golden dawn it seems a bit overdone. i wouldn't say i'm a serious golden dawn practitioner but i do use a bit of their material. i primarily focus on the mysticism aspect of Qabalah.

I think you misunderstand the viewpoint from which they work. I took a world religions class in high-school, and during that time i learned that, originally, the jewish concept of god was something pretty similar to the Tao, like god is the source of the cosmos as well as being the cosmos.this is also the stance of qabalah, and the basis of the tree of life. qabalah is the primary framework on which golden dawns ritual is built. the use of ritual, the invocation of godnames,the symbols and idols of various "gods" and "goddesses" etc are the use of active and passive symbolism to bring oneself into alignment with various aspects of god, in order to better understand and be closer to "god". the system has nothing to do with idolatry. Idolatry is the worship of an idol. In the golden dawn, there is no worship of idols of any kind. yes they use statues etc as symbols, but no, they dont worship them, or consider them gods. the same can be said for invocations of various gods and goddesses. the golden dawn doesnt actually consider pan, thoth, baphomet, etc actual "gods" they are symbols of different energy patterns of the cosmos. there is a difference between using a symbol/statue and worshiping it.

so, according to the "original" jewish concept of god, as well as the qabalistic concept, theres nothing wrong with using the sun or whatever to become closer to god because all things are different emanations of the divine, and getting in sink with the sun or different "gods" (forces of nature) to better understand the divine is a very different thing than placing the a single statue or force of nature on the pedestal of the most high and worshiping it. then theres the later concept of god in which doing all this shit is wrong, while its okay to slaughter entire communities because they "sinned" against god. hmm, which seems like the legit version of the most high??? probably the former one, while the latter probably came about as a form of social/religious control, and has zero to do with YHVH, however if the latter version is the "correct" one, i highly doubt YHVH would let people invoke his highest names in ritual to mock him, i mean he smote the f%*! out of a guy because he "spilled his seed on the ground" and ordered the massacre of entire society's for some trivial shit, you think hes gonna let people go around using his own power to make fun of him? yeah right.

also, according to the standards set down by your post for what is blasphemy, jesus himself would be a blasphemer. the dude was the sovereign sacrificer of the order of Melki-tzedek. tzedek is jupiter,

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greenlantern153
post Oct 8 2014, 10:00 AM
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You've raised quite a few points, I'll try to respond without confusing the issue.

QUOTE
I took a world religions class in high-school, and during that time i learned that, originally, the jewish concept of god was something pretty similar to the Tao, like god is the source of the cosmos as well as being the cosmos.


Whether or not that it is the case, the handful of people who put the golden dawn tradition together had the entire bible for reference. Since they were most certainly well read in the writings of many spiritual and mystical traditions, they would most certainly have had a good grip on the bible, and who the 'god of the bible' is. The god of the bible is very much a tribal war god who constantly demanded worship and obedience to no less than 613 laws. There is an entire chapter of curses in deuteronomy that would come upon a person who was under the old covenant and disobedient. It is common doctrine among Jews that Israel's destruction just around 70AD (if I recall correctly) was due to Israel's constant disobedience and worship of other gods.

QUOTE
the use of ritual, the invocation of godnames,the symbols and idols of various "gods" and "goddesses" etc are the use of active and passive symbolism to bring oneself into alignment with various aspects of god, in order to better understand and be closer to "god"


I agree, and it's a wonderful method of accomplishing transcendence and unity with the divine. The issue I have is specifically with the use of YHVH's name(s), and any symbols related to him, because YHVH himself forbids it. Read the bible closely and you'll realize that YHVH doesn't want you to do magick, or experience any kind of enlightenment, because those things fall outside of judeo-christian laws and doctrines. In fact, it seems clear that YHVH wants his followers to remain magically impotent. He accomplishes it by keeping them in a state of desire. Just look at what a christian's practice is like. They are constantly on their knees, hands together, praying, begging for his intervention and never getting it. And they must remain in this state of desiring, wishing, hoping, longing, begging or else they aren't trusting god with their lives any more, which is seen in the church as a kind of disobedience or rebellion against his sovereignty.

QUOTE
the system has nothing to do with idolatry. Idolatry is the worship of an idol. In the golden dawn, there is no worship of idols of any kind. yes they use statues etc as symbols, but no, they dont worship them, or consider them gods. the same can be said for invocations of various gods and goddesses. the golden dawn doesnt actually consider pan, thoth, baphomet, etc actual "gods" they are symbols of different energy patterns of the cosmos. there is a difference between using a symbol/statue and worshiping it


I couldn't disagree more. Although the word idolatry itself refers to a physical idol, true enough, the word is used in the bible as a sort of catch-all term for the worship or adoration of ANYTHING other than YHVH. It would definitely include the invocation of an entity as well (because the act of invocation is a unifying act). Also, you may consider the gods to be energy patterns, but that is your opinion. I believe that the gods are real entities; perhaps not on the physical plane, but real non-the-less. Sure there are energy patterns related to them; I would say there are information patterns to them too, but when I perceive an entity, the truth of my EXPERIENCE is that I am interacting with an entity, not just some energetic substance or informational structure.

QUOTE
so, according to the "original" jewish concept of god, as well as the qabalistic concept, theres nothing wrong with using the sun or whatever to become closer to god because all things are different emanations of the divine


Once again, I have no problem with that. However, YHVH most certainly does! I'm afraid I'm still too lazy to look up all the relevant verses and quote them here, but it's made perfectly clear in the bible that YHVH HATES any kind of interaction with other deities. Whatever the "original" jewish concept of god was, it is lost to antiquity, and it most certainly is not the idea presented in the bible.The authors of golden dawn and thelemic practices had the entire bible at their disposal and they would have known it well, which means their use of judeo-christian symbolism must have been completely intentional.

I think that the authors of golden dawn and thelema wanted a kind of indirect blasphemy, because they might have seen it as something that evokes power within the practitioner (in a dark side kind of way). Think about it. One moment your vibrating names, all related to YHVH, to accomplish your magick, and then the next your invoking egyptian gods, while YHVH fiercely forbids it, and magick itself too. Plus, what better way to stick it to the church who had been persecuting magick users and burning magical texts for centuries?

This post has been edited by greenlantern153: Oct 8 2014, 10:35 AM


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jacklord1967
post Apr 1 2015, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE(greenlantern153 @ Oct 8 2014, 11:00 AM) *

You've raised quite a few points, I'll try to respond without confusing the issue.
Whether or not that it is the case, the handful of people who put the golden dawn tradition together had the entire bible for reference. Since they were most certainly well read in the writings of many spiritual and mystical traditions, they would most certainly have had a good grip on the bible, and who the 'god of the bible' is. The god of the bible is very much a tribal war god who constantly demanded worship and obedience to no less than 613 laws. There is an entire chapter of curses in deuteronomy that would come upon a person who was under the old covenant and disobedient. It is common doctrine among Jews that Israel's destruction just around 70AD (if I recall correctly) was due to Israel's constant disobedience and worship of other gods.
I agree, and it's a wonderful method of accomplishing transcendence and unity with the divine. The issue I have is specifically with the use of YHVH's name(s), and any symbols related to him, because YHVH himself forbids it. Read the bible closely and you'll realize that YHVH doesn't want you to do magick, or experience any kind of enlightenment, because those things fall outside of judeo-christian laws and doctrines. In fact, it seems clear that YHVH wants his followers to remain magically impotent. He accomplishes it by keeping them in a state of desire. Just look at what a christian's practice is like. They are constantly on their knees, hands together, praying, begging for his intervention and never getting it. And they must remain in this state of desiring, wishing, hoping, longing, begging or else they aren't trusting god with their lives any more, which is seen in the church as a kind of disobedience or rebellion against his sovereignty.
I couldn't disagree more. Although the word idolatry itself refers to a physical idol, true enough, the word is used in the bible as a sort of catch-all term for the worship or adoration of ANYTHING other than YHVH. It would definitely include the invocation of an entity as well (because the act of invocation is a unifying act). Also, you may consider the gods to be energy patterns, but that is your opinion. I believe that the gods are real entities; perhaps not on the physical plane, but real non-the-less. Sure there are energy patterns related to them; I would say there are information patterns to them too, but when I perceive an entity, the truth of my EXPERIENCE is that I am interacting with an entity, not just some energetic substance or informational structure.
Once again, I have no problem with that. However, YHVH most certainly does! I'm afraid I'm still too lazy to look up all the relevant verses and quote them here, but it's made perfectly clear in the bible that YHVH HATES any kind of interaction with other deities. Whatever the "original" jewish concept of god was, it is lost to antiquity, and it most certainly is not the idea presented in the bible.The authors of golden dawn and thelemic practices had the entire bible at their disposal and they would have known it well, which means their use of judeo-christian symbolism must have been completely intentional.

I think that the authors of golden dawn and thelema wanted a kind of indirect blasphemy, because they might have seen it as something that evokes power within the practitioner (in a dark side kind of way). Think about it. One moment your vibrating names, all related to YHVH, to accomplish your magick, and then the next your invoking egyptian gods, while YHVH fiercely forbids it, and magick itself too. Plus, what better way to stick it to the church who had been persecuting magick users and burning magical texts for centuries?

Hey there, Imean you no disrespect but it seems to me that you don not understand your religion as such. EVERY religion worthy of the name IS & uses ceremonial magick. ESspecially prior to the reformation started by Henry the 8th. Christianity as practiced thesedays (thinkJoel Osteen) is NOT a religion as such anymore it is a system of social cohesion &/or control dependeing on where you stand in he structure. Christ himself WAS a true adept & was performing a magickal ritual when he put himself in the position of being crucified. Christs SYSTEM of magick was changed when Paul got control of the system. Paul NEVER met Christ nor got the requisite transmissions of power & inner contactds necessary to go forward with the system as James did & others (magdalene among others). Paul was interested in being the boss of soemthing. Wether or not he ACTUALLY got any sort of interaction with "God" or whatever is really germain though I think it fair to say that some of A system did go forward ( Hidigard of Bingen).

YVHW: Would seem to be an ASPECT of God. Furthermore, DIVINITY(true GOD) is NOT the same as 'deity'. Much is mistranslated so... he ancient Isrealite preists practiced magick I think the issue was 'what kind of magick' is being done & discussed? I wopuld suggest you look at Franz Bardons & Joesephine McCarthys "Quareia' systems. Quareia.com is a great place to get clarity. Look under the apprentice section on the Quareia homepage it IS really profound stuff. Also, look at William Misteles 'Bardon homepage' He is a Christian that practices magick.

I hope this is helpful to you,

Jack

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Vovin
post Apr 11 2015, 02:44 AM
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I can't disagree more with the op here. You can't judge something that you don't even understand. You must become an initiate before you can know what they are even talking about. If the GD doesn't sit right with you, then don't study it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)

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