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 The Observer Effect, that great quantum puzzle
Draw
post Jan 27 2012, 05:01 PM
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Or more accurately Heisenberg uncertainty principle.
I really don't know where to post this so it's here.

It's that test where they chuck electrons through slits and see the patterns as they hit the other side, only if you detect the electrons passing they change their pattern.
Can anyone find any actual experimental data where the electron detection equipment (like electronic recordings) are placed in a box kinda..
like a cat in a box? are the results entirely bias to human observation or is mechanical observation good enough?

All the sites i see tend to brush around the subject like an uncomfortable fact, not liking to say it, so trying to say it in a really complicated way.
If it is the case that it takes consciousness alone to cause the effect, which i think it dose, then it must really piss off annoying atheistic cynical types.

I for one think that is an amazingly good sport that should be practiced at length.


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post Feb 1 2012, 11:20 AM
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Actually, i'm not sure that it should be said this loud.

The simplicity of the physical evidence implying that consciousness's ability to observes is capable of ordering the universe differently is something of a secret for a reason.

i for one don't like the idea that something i say could be used to entice people to become christian, or some other ludricrasly corrupt faith.
On the other hand i hate the fact that people are so ignorant, their are too many secrets kept from the people at large.

Even science is still worried that they could become victims of zealots again, it's only been a few generations where it's been possible to call your-self a user of magic with so few negative implications,
with the majority of 'easily influenced' people in the world content with being either religious or atheist too tilt the balance may lessen the ease in which intelligent people can identify them selves to each-over without fear of reproach.

Just think, If all the zealotish atheists itching for a 'debate' that have approached you over the years believed you where evil going to hell and causing misery in countless ways instead of just idiots...
It's easy to over look the benefits of a deceived populous.

Is it time? this year should be a year with a lot of good changes..

Magic IMO is only a couple of times harder to learn as to learn to draw realistic pictures, what has held back its progress and added danger is having to practice in secret,
We are coming from a world of cave-paintings, imagine being able to get a job as a Mage! finally being able to receive a widely acclaimed occult education without a negatively religious underpinnings.
People with the knack being able to mature their ability safely and still have children.


But not at the cost of more lives.
So it is with sadness i request that unless you mind, this post be re-named and hidden from the search-engines someway.

This post has been edited by Draw: Feb 1 2012, 12:28 PM

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Vagrant Dreamer
post Feb 2 2012, 08:49 AM
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What you've found here is not a secret, the scientific community has been all abuzz because of it for quite some time. If you're the type that reads scientific journals and such other publications, then there's an article referencing this phenomenon every few issues. You could say that it's been shelved until they settle on a model that unifies physics on both the macro and quantum scales. The smaller things are, the less newtonian physics appears to matter, but they don't have a reliable alternative that covers everything - or at least, the models they have that potentially do are still being debated and tested.

It's this element, the observer effect, that has been blown out of proportion by the new age community when they heard it, and it's the basis of a lot of more recent wish-craft trends. The assumption is that because observing these quantum scale experiments appears to affect their outcome, awareness of reality alters reality - so if I believe hard enough, something will happen. That's not a far cry from a magical act, but it's a wild leap from the observed facts.

What they've seen so far is that on that scale you can know the position, velocity, or state of a particle but you can't know all three. If you know two, you can't know the third. Either this means that their math is insufficient, or that there's a slippery element to the quantum universe and only two of these things can ever be absolutes at any given time. Which ones are absolutes seem to be based on which ones we are observing. No one knows why at the moment, it's a complete mystery.

As far as experiments go - no one is physically looking at these things, it's not like there's a guy in a room watching a particle change states. All of these observations are done and recorded by machines, but it's raw data. Math - very, very complicated math - is what gives them these other factors. The equations don't balance out in all three qualities, though, if you get speed and position, the particle will appear to be both a wave and particle; if you get state and speed, it might appear to be nowhere or everywhere, or both.

Don't worry about another grand witch hunt, that will never happen again - not unless we lose all of our scientific knowledge for a few generations and have to rebuild society from scratch, and I'd still consider it unlikely. The world at large is never going to take magic seriously, never going to agree on which version of God is correct, and never going to accept a universal standard of morality. Our brains are literally unable to handle the unification of human kind and it will be a long, long time before they can. In the meantime, one way that you can help create a reasoning world is by being a reasoning person yourself. What you've done here is fall for the same tendency to come to an erroneous conclusion that a lot of other people have. When it comes to scientific study, if you don't understand a particular element, you either find out what it means, or if it is something on the edge of our collective knowledge, go find out through experimentation and observation, supplemented and driven by intuitive considerations; not made up of intuitive considerations.

This conversation will not cost any lives. Don't worry.

peace


--------------------
The world is complicated - that which makes it up is elegantly simplistic, but infinitely versatile.

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post Feb 2 2012, 05:47 PM
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My apologies for being a little mellow dramatic about the potential for witch-hunts on this but i disagree that it is not a real threat anymore.
Children are still being tortured an killed in Africa for being witch's and that may be due to their lack of education,
but one can't assume that our educations denial of magical ability isn't the reason for our safety.
We won't see another great hunt i agree, but something akin to sever racism could definitely be on the cards, an that's a nasty social revolution to have to undergo.

QUOTE
The world at large is never going to take magic seriously, never going to agree on which version of God is correct, and never going to accept a universal standard of morality.


What a terrible shame it would be if one of the most amazingly useful talents humans have come to possess was never seen for the worth it deserves.
If healing with the art was socially accepted it's combination with 'modern medicine' would be almost unstoppable an it could potentially relieve us from the pharmaceutical monopoly that keeps healthcare cost only affordable in rich country's,
which might be why alternative medicine of any-kind is so discredited, money talks.
As for what version of God is best i quite like the idea that eventually people might just agree that its best to just be inventive about the subject, why would ANYONE want the same god as someone else!
Only when people can start getting jobs as magic users can people start getting a proper education on the subject.

QUOTE
observing these quantum scale experiments appears to affect their outcome, awareness of reality alters reality - so if I believe hard enough, something will happen.
That's not a far cry from a magical act, but it's a wild leap from the observed facts.


You make it out like its not a big deal.. the observed facts are that consciousness effects sub-atomic outcomes through sometimes a rather tenuous link to the actual data,
which, funnily enough would suggest that people watching or testing magical acts would be effecting their outcome.. making James Randi style tests rather extra-inconclusive.
I for one have only been able to perform magical acts in the presence of people when i've taken their observation into account, by either suggesting to them in someway of the potential for it's occurrence or
by directly effecting their ability to observe and expect things.
i get the impression that to do something even small under James Randi conditions would be like having to f%*! the heads of a small nation, the uncertainty principle backs it up.

Science as a whole has debunked the paranormal for a very long time and would brush this under the carpet far more effectively if cathode ray tubes weren't so prolific, in more ways than one since its all the equipment you need to perform the experiment.
Scientific understanding has as many secrets as occultists do, maybe more, this might not be one of them but it's a fact they rather it was.

I don't want to get all conspiratorial on ur ass but i'm already a new-agey tree-hugger so i don't care much for labels so i will.
I mentioned that it would be nice to get a job as a mage but you only have to look around to see that positions are being filled already
Military; would be fools not no have spent billions on it
Medicine; would be fools not to have spent billions debunking it.
Marketing; Stock markets are predictable with it, company's form identity's with it, people buy what you want with it..

Practically every commercial or governmental enterprise inclined to use magic is also inclined to keep it a secret.
Same goes for scientific research, often in the same organizations.

The last famously good scientist of note was retarded, the ones before him lived in world-war 2.
Good scientist nowadays sign declarations of secrecy before they even graduate, what descent discovery's they make that intermingle with magic are completely off the radar.

QUOTE
The equations don't balance out in all three qualities, though, if you get speed and position, the particle will appear to be both a wave and particle; if you get state and speed, it might appear to be nowhere or everywhere, or both.


It's nice to have a scientific observation on the subject said in such an understandable manor, it's rare.
as well as very interesting.

The fact is that science and the establishment as a whole has debunked the paranormal initially only to defuse the massive unquestionable power of the christian church but once a system is in place it becomes profitable for that system to continue.
The society we live in is a band-aid for the catastrophically corrupt church, an its stuck on with the congealed blood of its victims, only now its harboring the same infection it was intended to fix.
It could be said that Christianity was once the band-aid for pagan faiths that preceded it.
The infection, the impulse to hold on to power after it's fulfilled it's purpose.

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