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 Satan Vs God
The_Seeker
post Feb 5 2010, 02:42 PM
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Satan, The Adversary, vs the God of Christian/Islamic/Judaic faiths

There is an ongoing war between these two forces... God is the impersonal force that wants us to give in, to suffer, to do what we are told, and dictates how life should be lived. Satan is the ultimate adversary of God. His is the true religion of humanity, to seek spiritual advancement, to better oneself in all ways, and most importantly not to deny oneself what one ultimately deserves.

God says pray and suffer.

Satan says live according to your Will. Deny thyself not what thou desires, but be your own god and decide for yourself what is right and what is not, for truly we all are our own gods and can live according to whatever philosophy we believe in.

It is not about good vs evil, for a Satanist will say that God is evil and a Christian/Jew/Muslim will say that Satan is evil.

God requires faith. Satan requires Will.

Satanism is not about evil, it is about standing up for oneself and forming your own reality.

In truth good and evil are only man made concepts. It is better to say that there is positive and negative.

I realize I just seem like any other Satanist talking trash on Christianity, however I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourselves. There will be suffering no matter what path you take for that is the nature of human life, but will you suffer for the sake of suffering or will you suffer while struggling to live the life you know you deserve?

Any thoughts? Comments? Arguments?


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Dancing Coyote
post Feb 5 2010, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE(The_Seeker @ Feb 5 2010, 03:42 PM) *

Satan, The Adversary, vs the God of Christian/Islamic/Judaic faiths

There is an ongoing war between these two forces... God is the impersonal force that wants us to give in, to suffer, to do what we are told, and dictates how life should be lived. Satan is the ultimate adversary of God. His is the true religion of humanity, to seek spiritual advancement, to better oneself in all ways, and most importantly not to deny oneself what one ultimately deserves.

God says pray and suffer.

Satan says live according to your Will. Deny thyself not what thou desires, but be your own god and decide for yourself what is right and what is not, for truly we all are our own gods and can live according to whatever philosophy we believe in.

It is not about good vs evil, for a Satanist will say that God is evil and a Christian/Jew/Muslim will say that Satan is evil.

God requires faith. Satan requires Will.

Satanism is not about evil, it is about standing up for oneself and forming your own reality.

In truth good and evil are only man made concepts. It is better to say that there is positive and negative.

I realize I just seem like any other Satanist talking trash on Christianity, however I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourselves. There will be suffering no matter what path you take for that is the nature of human life, but will you suffer for the sake of suffering or will you suffer while struggling to live the life you know you deserve?

Any thoughts? Comments? Arguments?


I was just thinking about this today actually.

Yahweh accepts only those of a certain race, religion, and mentality. S/He commits mass genocide and plays folly games with humans. S/He claims to have created man, the universe and everything: while saying one of her/his creations has run rampant and though s/he can completely destroy this creation s/he chooses not to (for unknown reasons). This being claims their 'evil' counterpart is responsible for humanities' "knowledge of good and evil" (which is a bad thing?) This whole beginning thing sounds like an evolution story in the first place. This being has a history of having schizophrenic episodes, who openly admits to committing mass genocide while saying "Oh yeah that's in the past, I'm about love and friendship now." Who knowingly sent her/his only son to be killed for no reason at all other than to create a word for something to make humans feel more guilty, and to create more suffering. This being has a history of taking political sides and destroying entire cultures at whim, while claiming to love all her/his creations equally.

Lucifer has been known to accept all regardless of race, religion, social class, or mentality. This being does not play games with humans but simply tries to make living better for people on earth. If any human being wants anything at all, they can feel comfortable approaching this being and striking up a deal in order to get what they want (and this being has a great track record!) This being has been said to be responsible for: cities, the monetary system, running water, the written word, the contract, lawyers, the taming of fire, and more I probably do not know about. If one were to take a look at this being objectively it would prove to be difficult because all we have is a one sided account of what this being is like (that being the bible and the bible is said to be written by the hand of Yahweh itself (which is doubly strange because Lucifer is supposed to be responsible for the written word)) so we'd have to do some further investigation to accurately describe this being clearly and concisely.

I've made my decision long ago, you guys can take your pick.

This post has been edited by Dancing Coyote: Feb 5 2010, 11:57 PM


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Vagrant Dreamer
post Feb 6 2010, 12:29 AM
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All of this is of course based on the idea that the Judeo-Christian ideas about 'God' and 'Satan' are in any way remotely accurate.

The divine consciousness that humanity anthropomorphizes as 'God' (and as 'Satan' for that matter) - doesn't ask or want anything from anyone. It is a transcendant presence that is as equally as impersonal as it is personal.

There is no adversary to this all-encompassing Consciousness - that word, Consciousness, cannot convey the existence of this force accurately to a human mind. What we typically consider consciousness is a peculiarity of the biological brain. True consciousness has nothing to do with material things, wants, desires, etc.

Of course, within that greater Divine Presence there are other things - but it doesn't matter if you follow the 'Satan' thoughtform or the 'Yahweh' thoughtform (even the people that think they do usually don't**) because they're both illusions, and they can only deal in illusions.

**IHVH and ALHIM are kabbalistic formulas describing a 'living god' and a 'lawful god', which is not an anthropomorphized being at all but a living force or presence expressed in turn by an ultimately unknowable divinity outside the bounds of creation as we are able to comprehend it. These two primary expressions of 'God' reflect the basic duality of Law and Nature - the framework according to which everything functions, and the product of that functioning system in conjunction with a materially existent reality. The most important books of the old testament hail from Egypt, it is recently believed (explains several key issues), and are to be read heiroglyphically rather than literally as has become the custom. They tell a very, very different story when read this way, one about a divinity that, again, doesn't want anything from you at all.

Satanism and Christianity/Judaism/Etc., are both religions founded on misunderstandings and lies, in my opinion. The only thing worth seeking is the transcendence of human consciousness, and both of these religions, along with basically every other religion, are designed to prevent that transcendence by trapping out attention. If you want to get something out of religion, look at every one of them as a metaphor for human consciousness (which is all pretty much everything in human culture amounts too, all we do as a species is regurgitate ourselves in a million different ways), and chart your course from there. Taken even remotely literally, they all lead in circles.

peace



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SororZSD23
post Feb 6 2010, 09:39 AM
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I'm thoroughly with Vagrant Dreamer on this.

Satanism is a modern occult philosophy of self-interest. Some people treat Satanism as a theistic religion and as an antithesis of what they think is bad or hypocritical about Christianity. But if you don't buy into a pedestrian brand of Christianity and if you have some background in the historicity of religious and spiritual concepts, theistic Satanism/Luciferianism doesn't make much sense either.

Lucifer originally designated Venus. Jews then demonized Lucifer in the Book of Enoch which contains an allegory in which the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar--who identified with Lucifer (ie, Ishtar, Venus, Aphrodite) is equated with an archangel named Lucifer. The story is 1) an allegory about the fall of Nebuchadnezzar and 2) the Jewish version of the fall of the morning star (Venus--ie, why it appears in the morning instead of the night sky). The moral of the story in this myth that is missed is that Lucifer was cast from his role in heaven because he avowed to only serve and honor God, not mankind --that is, he was into empty elitist concepts instead of standing and delivering. Most myths about the fall of the morning star have to do with falling from grace because of narcisicm, vanity, or overweaning ambition. The stories of the watchers, Nephilim, and also the Genesis story are all Hebrew versions of other myths that are cultural reinterpretations of myths of surrounding, rival cultures. So the snake that brings wisdom and cutlure in Gilgamesh is a diabolic entity in Genesis (Yeah, the Hebrews didn't like the Babylonians and also didn't like that the rival cultures all around them thought that snakes were cool) . As for the stories about the fall of man through gaining wisdom, culture, and technology (and loss of innocence), this motif is seen in Genesis and the Enochian tales of the watchers and Nephilim. The same idea is seen in the Greek myth of Prometheus.Also, esoterically speaking, Michael and Lucifer are 2 sides of a coin--or two ends of a the spear-like weapon that symbolizes the central channel of the self and alchemical transitioning of the lower self to the higher self. These themes are seen in medieval Hermeticism/magical Christianity.

But neither the Christian God nor Lucifer are "real" entities. They are concepts that are limited to one particular culture and dualistic religious philosophy. The world is way bigger. Some people need a very pedestrian and dualistic concept of religion and spirituality. They need a Sky Daddy and a good guy and a bad guy and like to play my Daddy is better than your Daddy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/harhar1.gif) All this stuff is discarded in real mysticism, spiritiuality, and occultism.


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Leaving aside those principles of magic that play on the superstitious and that, whatever they be, are unworthy of the general public, we will direct our thoughts only to those things that contribute to wisdom and that can satisfy better minds . . . -from De Magia by Giordano Bruno (born 1548; burned at the stake February 16, 1600).
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The_Seeker
post Feb 6 2010, 04:36 PM
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Satan and God are only concepts or symbols. Entities only exist in the mind. In other words they are real if you perceive them to be real. I only meant to speak out against organized religions based on God because his religion is about suffering the self away while Satan's is about self empowerment.

SororZSD23,

You said that God and Satan are not real entities. Why not? And are there any entities that are real?

VagrantDreamer,

You said, The only thing worth seeking is the transcendence of human consciousness. Yet you also say that religions prevent that transcendence. What is the proper method of attaining consciousness? meditation? and is that the only method? You also speak of illusions. What in this reality is not an illusion?


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SororZSD23
post Feb 7 2010, 12:50 PM
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Actually Christianity isn't about suffering, it is about compassion and redemption (the afterlife redemptive part of which is a carry over from pagan mystery cults and mystical philosophies that were actually seguing from polytheistic cult practice to salvational quasi-monotheism.) Christian moral and mystical concepts didn't develop in a vaccum in early Christianity, anyway. They developed in tandem with Hermeticism, Neoplatonism and much earlier spiritual concepts of the preSocratics, such as the Pythagoreans.In their writings, they often referred to "God" despite that the general cultural paradigm was polytheistic--they were more so henotheistic.) Buddhism--which is atheistic-- is not about suffering, it is about compassion and gnosis (ie, "enlightenment") but states that "life is suffering" but there is a way to get past suffering (Smarta sect Hinduism --Advaita Vedanta --which is panentheisitc --which is different from" pantheistic") also holds the same idea. All these belief systems hold the idea that there is a perfect state of Being and that most human beings are too ignorant, programmed, or deluded to experience that state and this why they suffer and cause suffering to themselves and others. Some forms of religion take this and get very simplistic, carrot-and-stick about it ir else believe that suffering is deserved--but very many people do prefer to operate on that level even if it is neurotic and ironically antithetical to the aims of higher spirituality.

Not everyone defines God as the Old Testament War Lord or as a guy who demands blood sacrifice or suffering in this world for comfort in the next. As for philosophies like your idea of Luciferianism in late antiquity, this was the domain of certain Gnostic sects who, for example, honored the Serpent in the Garden as a wisdom deity and villified the Demiurgos who condemned man for acquiring knowledge. Gnostics, however, believed in a higher (true) and lower ( false) god. The false god --the creator god or Demiurgos of the OT-- was considered diabolical. A more transcendent and impersonal deity was the true ideal to be sought for them and Christos was not an historical person but something like the Crowelian idea of the Holy Guardian Angel.

For many, what is popularly called God in the West is a personfication of Reality itself: Monad, Nous, Ain Soph Aur, Brahman, Tathagata. It is impersonal, non-dual and beyond all moral relativism about what is good or bad or what feels good or not (ie "suffering). The point of most forms of spirituality--if not "religion"-- is to figure out how to become aligned with or one with Reality to overcome existential pain and suffering. Nontheistic Satanists are atheists, and do not have afterlife belief issues per se except for occult ideas about strengthening personal ego-consciousness to such a degree that it survives the physical body after death. So their view of life is to serve and enjoy themselves --although they do have a moral code. This makes a lot more sense to me as a working paradigm than theistic Satanism as you present it here.

If you want to create and adhere to a mythology and philosophy that has a deity in it that you call Lucifer whose adversary is the Christian God, fine. In the history or religion and politics, one person's god is often another's demon. Whatever suits you. But your POV and knowlege base about religion and spirituality are very limited and thus unconvincing to me.


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Leaving aside those principles of magic that play on the superstitious and that, whatever they be, are unworthy of the general public, we will direct our thoughts only to those things that contribute to wisdom and that can satisfy better minds . . . -from De Magia by Giordano Bruno (born 1548; burned at the stake February 16, 1600).
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Vagrant Dreamer
post Feb 8 2010, 08:43 AM
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QUOTE(The_Seeker @ Feb 6 2010, 05:36 PM) *

VagrantDreamer,

You said, The only thing worth seeking is the transcendence of human consciousness. Yet you also say that religions prevent that transcendence. What is the proper method of attaining consciousness? meditation? and is that the only method? You also speak of illusions. What in this reality is not an illusion?


True consciousness is attained by objectivity of awareness, and meditation is one way to establish this. There are other ways - but most of them climax in meditation as well (various practices of attaining gnosis, spiritual ordeals intended to shatter the ego, etc.) I am hesitant to say that there is only one way, but it does seem that all roads lead to Rome, as it were.

As it stands, by and large we are a species operating on what we are told, what we see, the information that our senses give us. Religions are systems and codes of behavior and moral standardization, by which the consitituents are expected to live and act. For the purpose of maintaining social order for the masses I don't consider this a negative, per se - although taken to the extent that it often is it certainly can be.

However, when we remove from ourselves those impressions - which god to worship and why, how to live our lives according to these standards set down by others presently or in history, what is socially acceptable by those masses, the trappings of religion and culture (especially our native religion and culture which has the greatest impact on us having trapped us at childhood), etc. - and evaluate our lives and actions according to a higher personal system of observation and necessity, then we can approach free will and true consciousness.

The only thing in reality that is not an illusion is what I call the First Person Perspective - not the Ego, but the existence of Point of View, whether that is in the individual or in an expanded state, shared or not; the ego will come and go but the Observer, the Perspective, will not. There is a degree of consciousness in the Observer which is transcendent of human consciousness as we define it (and there is more than one definition). As we divest the control of external forces, which drive us to a form of consciousness that is about reaction and automation, then we are able to take action based on intention, and to develop intention based on Knowledge.

For the most part, we live in a state of manufactured attraction - desire - intention - action. Religion, native culture, social indoctrination, and the constant reinforcement of these things throughout our lives in our relationships and media (all of it, including literature), keeps us trapped in this loop of being essentially told what we should want and how we should get it (and get it NOW!) The experiences of true Consciousness are universal, but usually few in an individuals life. That our True Consciousness should make occasionally impressions through this fog is inevitable for everyone, but we are not necessarily universally aware of those impressions when they occur because we are not listening - and the greatest illusion of all is that when we get them we believe they came from the same things around us that drive all of our other desires.

Contrary to what is sounding like a buddhist sales pitch, I believe that these base elements of lesser consciousness - imagination, thought, attraction, desire, intention, will - are shadows of True versions, which transcend the lesser elements to the same degree that True consciousness transcends lesser consciousness. Our true Self - an expanded ego that is aware of its place and role in reality - has attractions based on necessity to it's goals; uses desire as a tool rather than a definition; enacts intention and action in order to accomplish and end rather than living in them haphazardly out of habit.

What in reality is not an illusion? The question is whether or not what we define as reality is reality at all? And is there a reality beyond this one, which is not an illusion at all? Who does not recognize when something is wrong? Not in the moralistic sense, but in a literal sense (right and wrong answer sense) - that upon exposure to a thing or situation, etc., what we encounter seems abhorrent because it conflicts with some deep inner notion of what should be versus what actually is? Or for that matter, the opposite - we connect to something that seems Right, or Correct. These feelings can arise either from the lesser consciousness of reaction and habit, or from the Higher Consciousness which tells us the difference between real and illusion. They are different in quality, and our reactions are different, however, and that is how we know which is which.

The lesser consciousness reacts with fear and anger. The higher consciousness reacts with something much deeper - a sense of revulsion that is not emotional, but disruptive, momentarily, to the lesser consciousness. These experiences are universal, but more and more over time we justify the discrepency according to our indoctrination. And if we remain attached to lesser consciousness then we will seek out further justification if what we have isn't enough. Or, we allow those moments to build, and we follow a 'mysterious' instinct which ultimately may lead us to True Consciousness.

I espouse a relinquishment of both 'God' and 'Satan' because both are finite concepts, made so by our inherent drive to codify, label, and organize them. To say that Satan wants this or that for you, or that God wants this or that for you, is limiting on both fronts, and instead of being led by something infinite we are then led by something no greater than ourselves - creatures or beings of needs, wants, good or bad intentions, relativistic moral standards of one kind or another. Determining that we should not act in some ways, based on the opposition of other ways, is the same as any other indoctrination. Be this so that you won't be that, believe in this because it is the opposite of that. What's more, the desire to find and align with some entity that approves of us and accepts us "for who we are", etc., it's just a manifestation of the cultural and social indoctrination we all undergo. Our lesser consciousness and it's constituent elements, can only evaluate illusions and treat them as though they were real. From the True Consciousness' perspective, Lesser Consciousness is an evaluation tool, one that reacts to illusions. I don't think it is wrong to enjoy that evaluation, but I think that it is a hinderance to hinge our intentions and actions on the operation of that Lesser Self.

Satan is as much of a trap as God. If Satan does want these things for you, then he probably agrees.

peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Feb 8 2010, 08:47 AM


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plainsight
post Feb 9 2010, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE

Satan says live according to your Will. Deny thyself not what thou desires, but be your own god and decide for yourself what is right and what is not, for truly we all are our own gods and can live according to whatever philosophy we believe in.


By this statement what does Satan say, with so many conflicting wills there will be one will which supresses or destroys the others (your will). And guess which one will would be on top? Satan.

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The_Seeker
post Feb 9 2010, 03:33 PM
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Thank you very much for your insight Vagrant. You are very well spoken and you answered the question I asked you. I highly appreciate it. You have given me a lot to meditate on and I feel I have a much clearer view on religion now.


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Kath
post Jun 13 2010, 03:42 PM
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Wow, that's some really good reading Vagrant (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
totally agree with you.


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termsof
post Jun 13 2010, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE(Vagrant Dreamer @ Feb 8 2010, 07:43 AM) *

I espouse a relinquishment of both 'God' and 'Satan' because both are finite concepts, made so by our inherent drive to codify, label, and organize them. To say that Satan wants this or that for you, or that God wants this or that for you, is limiting on both fronts, and instead of being led by something infinite we are then led by something no greater than ourselves - creatures or beings of needs, wants, good or bad intentions, relativistic moral standards of one kind or another. Determining that we should not act in some ways, based on the opposition of other ways, is the same as any other indoctrination. Be this so that you won't be that, believe in this because it is the opposite of that. What's more, the desire to find and align with some entity that approves of us and accepts us "for who we are", etc., it's just a manifestation of the cultural and social indoctrination we all undergo. Our lesser consciousness and it's constituent elements, can only evaluate illusions and treat them as though they were real. From the True Consciousness' perspective, Lesser Consciousness is an evaluation tool, one that reacts to illusions. I don't think it is wrong to enjoy that evaluation, but I think that it is a hinderance to hinge our intentions and actions on the operation of that Lesser Self.

Satan is as much of a trap as God. If Satan does want these things for you, then he probably agrees.

peace

Very clever, Vagrant, but it's very subtly biased, not quite as disinterested as you have yourself sound, which probably most readers haven't noticed, if any, so allow me to play 'devil's advocate' for a sec and point out why it is.

A essay I just searched up says, "Within the Left Hand Path, the self is god, or the center of consciousness. It can be said that the left hand path is self serving. In right hand path practices the self is often denied in exchange for association with a higher power." Despite your assumed 'impartiality', to say the best and higher goal is to be "led by something infinite" is very clearly an aspect of the right-hand paradigm. Both the left hand and the right presumably seek to unite with infinity, but the way they try to accomplish that is what sets them apart. There is no need to be dogmatic, but there is the subtle essence of a right-hander in your article.

I really don't know 'the Situation' as it is enough now, so it would be pointless for me to advocate one over the other.

This post has been edited by termsof: Jun 13 2010, 06:04 PM

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Chr666
post Jul 26 2014, 02:40 PM
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QUOTE(The_Seeker @ Feb 5 2010, 02:42 PM) *

Satan, The Adversary, vs the God of Christian/Islamic/Judaic faiths

There is an ongoing war between these two forces... God is the impersonal force that wants us to give in, to suffer, to do what we are told, and dictates how life should be lived. Satan is the ultimate adversary of God. His is the true religion of humanity, to seek spiritual advancement, to better oneself in all ways, and most importantly not to deny oneself what one ultimately deserves.

God says pray and suffer.

Satan says live according to your Will. Deny thyself not what thou desires, but be your own god and decide for yourself what is right and what is not, for truly we all are our own gods and can live according to whatever philosophy we believe in.

It is not about good vs evil, for a Satanist will say that God is evil and a Christian/Jew/Muslim will say that Satan is evil.

God requires faith. Satan requires Will.

Satanism is not about evil, it is about standing up for oneself and forming your own reality.

In truth good and evil are only man made concepts. It is better to say that there is positive and negative.

I realize I just seem like any other Satanist talking trash on Christianity, however I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourselves. There will be suffering no matter what path you take for that is the nature of human life, but will you suffer for the sake of suffering or will you suffer while struggling to live the life you know you deserve?

Any thoughts? Comments? Arguments?


To my correct knowledge Jahwe is an ancient pagan deity.
Satan is only a hebrew substantive meaning "adversary" or "accuser". My understanding of Satanism is that Satan is the name of the patron deity who can be various between satanists.
Since Satanism is based upon the ancient pagan religions, the abrahamic traditions will always be the enemies of Satan. Satan shows us that they are lies created to control humanity.

This post has been edited by Chr666: Jul 26 2014, 02:44 PM

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SharkLover
post Oct 7 2014, 03:15 AM
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Anyone can be a Satan (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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