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 Big Guy, Horns, Wings, Impeckable Laugh, Large Arms, Oh My!, this one time....in a dark room...
Casadeluna
post May 12 2009, 09:33 AM
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okay put this image in your mind first, about 15-20 ppl, basement, all either, drunk, high, on excstacy, or all together, me and a friend at excstacy and mushrooms. okay now lets start
lots a shit happened that night that was like....woah, but one event in particular i wish to discuss with the world of ya'll...ok so, great party, dancing, floating through the cosmos, bodies, clash, fierce emotion, friend starts to bugg out, i told em to concentrate on his center, he felt it, but let go, for room for an ego, which than made the twicthing and retarded speech worse, i couldn't deal, i felt many things, portals all around, levitation, it was TOO strange so i went upstairs to a dark room, to sit and grab my cool, ROFL thats exactly what didn't happen, many things were,,,revealed? to me in that room, but one particular even as i said before i wish to open you to, there was after a time of expanding and contracting, a large entity, a large beast, jaws of anguish, and an eternal reign, as if to say hello, he outstreched his arms into the sky, i did the same, i then felt my arms grow to the size of the room and back, as if it were inside me, i felt so strong as if we could take on the world, he looked so badass i can't stress enough, but what was even better was the feeling of meeting him, i dont hold myself hostage to anything now, but it was pretty damn crazy, i felt his arms becoming mine, and my bones shifting, my back was in extreme pain, right where your shoulder blades are, okay not extreme but like yeah if i was a wimp it wud be pain, lol...just to say that physical pain is nothing , ahh,,,,nvm forget it, okay anyway, after this vision of sorts, i went downstairs and everyone was so incredibly calm and just sitting sharing moments with eachother, as if they knew i was up there doing crazy shit or whatever.
okay so moral of the story? was i looking else where? or was i lookin inside my own self? was that vision a version of the beast i feel trapped beneath this mask?
i told this story to a dear dear friend of mine, he told me to watch out for demons, and that they are NEVER good, i could see his point, but something about this was much to tragic, like a lion, king of thejungle, behind bars his entire life, well thats it a previous post reminded me of this, thought i'd see what you think...

namaste
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Naimi
post May 12 2009, 01:37 PM
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Hello

One thing I cannot understand when people start using lsd/drugs to get the vision. What is the point? I am not trying to judge, but that... is very said.
IMHO - It will be play of sick mind and visions from, i am sorry, "rubbish" bin. Everyone who is under influence of some sort of similar substances will claim seeing visions and even interact with them.

Good luck with interpretation.

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Если мне обломают крылья - я взлечу на метле.

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Vilhjalmr
post May 12 2009, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE(Naimi @ May 12 2009, 02:37 PM) *

One thing I cannot understand when people start using lsd/drugs to get the vision. What is the point? I am not trying to judge, but that... is very said.
IMHO - It will be play of sick mind and visions from, i am sorry, "rubbish" bin. Everyone who is under influence of some sort of similar substances will claim seeing visions and even interact with them.

One thing I cannot understand is when people start mocking those who use drugs to get visions. What is the point? I am trying to judge, and that... is very sad.

I guess all of the vast and varied mystical traditions of South America, India, Siberia, and Mongolia are all "rubbish" because they use drugs, huh? Do you have any reason at all for denigrating drug use? A trance state is altering your brain in the same manner. There's a reason drug use has often been thought to "open the gate" between worlds.

Three thumbs down for you, my small-minded friend.

This post has been edited by Vilhjalmr: May 12 2009, 02:17 PM


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Naimi
post May 12 2009, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE(Vilhjalmr @ May 12 2009, 09:08 PM) *

One thing I cannot understand is when people start mocking those who use drugs to get visions. What is the point? I am trying to judge, and that... is very sad.

I guess all of the vast and varied mystical traditions of South America, India, and Siberia are all "rubbish" because they use drugs, huh? Do you have any reason at all for denigrating drug use?

Three thumbs down.


Sorry if my grammar skills offended you somehow, english is not my native language. I promise I will to improve it though.

QUOTE
Do you have any reason at all for denigrating drug use?
I do, the reasons are well known.
First - its illegal.
Second - well maintain, self sufficient and clear minded person is an open space to explore while disorientated confused panicked and weaked by the drug is a jinny bottle of its own desires.

In regards to the “traditions” – you are mixing knowledge of use with misuse of drugs at the party.

As I said before - it is my own opinion on this matter so please do not highlight to me any of my words as I am quite clear what I have written before.

Enjoy your evening.

Kind regards


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Если мне обломают крылья - я взлечу на метле.

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Vilhjalmr
post May 12 2009, 06:59 PM
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I apologize for mocking your grammar; I know English isn't your native language, and you do very well. I just get mad when people dismiss a subject like this without even considering it.

If you're talking about drug use in a "party" scene like this thread may be about, I will agree. It's unlikely that you will have a genuine mystical experience. But if you think that chemicals can never be used, I reply below:

QUOTE(Naimi @ May 12 2009, 03:33 PM) *
First - its illegal.

So was all magic, at one point. It's irrelevant.

QUOTE
Second - well maintain, self sufficient and clear minded person is an open space to explore while disorientated confused panicked and weaked by the drug is a jinny bottle of its own desires.

Drugs always make you weak, disoriented, confused, and panicked... and magic never does. Gotcha. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

QUOTE
In regards to the “traditions” – you are mixing knowledge of use with misuse of drugs at the party.

I don't believe I said anything at all about what type of drug use I was referring to; in fact, you were the one who made a blanket statement about drugs.

This post has been edited by Vilhjalmr: May 12 2009, 07:03 PM


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OsirisLaysSlain
post May 12 2009, 08:39 PM
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To the OP: It could mean a number of things, you would have a better shot at working out the possible meaning of your vision(s) then anyone here. Just meditate on it for a while if you feel it was a significant. Best of luck to you.

I think it's very silly to assume that substances like MDMA and Psyclobin can't produce meaningful visions or spiritual insight. While I agree perhaps the setting wasn't the most conducive for some sort of spiritual purpose. Nor do I think that most psychedelics should be used recreationally (but rather therapeutically or specifically for spiritual aims). Despite that it doesn't mean that what Casadeluna experienced wasn't meaningful, valid, or that it was somehow trite. Even used improperly I feel psychedelics can offer it's participants legitimate spiritual experience.

We've been using entheogens like Psyclobin, Iboga, Amanita Muscari, Cannabis, LSA,Yopo, Ergot, etc. since as early as the stone age.

As for the legality of it, I think it's obvious (especially in the States) that prohibition has failed. Harm Reduction, public education, and legalization seems like the only rational stance for any nation. To me it seems that if prohibition has done anything it's deprived us of a very important part of our spirituality. I have a lot to say on that aspect of the subject, but I'll try to stay on point.

If Casadeluna sought a spiritual experience, the drugs could have been used in a better manner. I don't think anyone would refute that. Also resorting to chemognosis is sometimes like using a chainsaw where a scalpel is needed. However with moderate dosage, experience, and above all respect- these substances can have a spot in one's spiritual practices.

"Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means." William S. Burroughs

While we don't need the drugs for to achieve gnosis, have visions, or for pathworking and IMHO they shouldn't replace your quotidian magickal practices... but they can sometimes offer shortcuts and can occasionally be used to learn much needed lessons which you might otherwise be oblivious to.

If you'd like to learn more I'd suggest Daniel Pinchbeck's "Breaking Open the Head" and Mircea Eliade's mammoth book "Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy" (more reference type material, but tolerable in small bites). I'm sure there's a plenty of information on psychedelics and their historical use in various spiritual paths online if you're feeling frisky.

LVX,
N.

This post has been edited by OsirisLaysSlain: May 12 2009, 08:43 PM


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Oh, Thou, who didst with pitfall and with gin
Beset the Road I was to wander in,
Thou wilt not with Predestined Evil round
Enmesh, and then impute my Fall to Sin!

-Omar Khayyam

Ostendo non Ostento

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Casadeluna
post May 14 2009, 09:34 AM
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intresting...haha, well to calm a few minds, this was a few months ago, in the winter season, and much has changed since then, much is always changing...eye did not go into the situation looking for a vision, thats why it supprised me so, i mean yeah a trip, faces in floors, melting celilings, but in an all dark room all that color, dialects of which i've never heard... it was crazy cool and like i said alot more happened, i saw some things and i guess i was talking to my inner self, my chackras were spinning a mile a minute.
here was something about magick not using your energy?
Second - well maintain, self sufficient and clear minded person is an open space to explore while disorientated confused panicked and weaked by the drug is a jinny bottle of its own desires.

Drugs always make you weak, disoriented, confused, and panicked... and magic never does. Gotcha. 13.gif

dude sometimes i feel very drained after confrontations, i duno lol

i duno much about this world, but i know where here, and thats enough for me, something is here that separates most humans from their divine and the divine universe.
i wrote this specificly to see if anyone could rellate or take something from it, an maybe offer me insight.

and to wrap up the drugs thing, i dont do it much anymore, but i do it for the same purpose as i used to, well im talkin about ganja, to expand, you can't deny how your mind works on ganja is just EPIC, soothes and serrates...i have a knowege in tampering with the ether planes and sorceric arts or whatever you want to call it, and it grows each day, yet i'm still prolly on stage one, maybe i have a checkpoint?

emissary of the most high
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Hermetic668
post Jul 25 2009, 12:38 AM
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QUOTE(Casadeluna @ May 12 2009, 10:33 AM) *

i told this story to a dear dear friend of mine, he told me to watch out for demons, and that they are NEVER good, i could see his point, but something about this was much to tragic, like a lion, king of thejungle, behind bars his entire life, well thats it a previous post reminded me of this, thought i'd see what you think...


If you bumped up against one of the Descending Hierarchy... They are not all ravening beasts. In the Christian sense, They were simply on the losing side of a war. Dangerous? Powerful? Absolutely.

Utterly malevolent? Not always.

Best,
Hermetic668


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Fear not any man; fear not thineself; remember that fear is failure and the forerunner of failure. Be thou therefore without fear, for in the heart of the coward virtue abideth not.

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SereneBlue
post Jul 31 2009, 09:40 PM
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I know this is an older post but I'm going to reply anyway.

I believe what the OP experienced was what the Ancient Chinese called the Duyin - the shadow side of *clarity consciousness. It's what shamanic traditions the world over cultivate. In Tibetan Buddhism they would call such a being as the OP met a Tulpa. However, it is still within the skanda of Forms and has not yet reached the deeper realization of Formless.

It matters not how one gets to the state of experiencing it - whether via drugs, trance states or intense meditation. It's still Duyin Tulpa.

It is my belief that Tulpas and Duyin can teach valuable things to us about ourselves - though there is always the possibility not all of what we might learn is something we find easy to face or accept. But it does help to meditate also so as to see the origin of one's own thoughts, drives, emotions, volition, physical sensations etc. When we actually see these arise and pass it can also help us to gain deeper understanding of what the Tulpa/Duyin was communicating.





*by clarity consciousness I don't mean everyday, waking consciousness. I mean the clarity consciousness one achieves during very high states of awareness. Samahdi, Enlightenment, etc


This post has been edited by SereneBlue: Jul 31 2009, 10:39 PM

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Casadeluna
post Aug 1 2009, 09:26 AM
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hey thanks, blue that fit perfect...have you ever heard of the Dannan or Formalli? reminds me of that somehow.

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SereneBlue
post Aug 1 2009, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE(Casadeluna @ Aug 1 2009, 10:26 AM) *

hey thanks, blue that fit perfect...have you ever heard of the Dannan or Formalli? reminds me of that somehow.



Hmm...No can't say that I have.

FYI - there is a book that actually teaches one how to achieve creating and calling up Tulpas and reaching Duyin without the need for access to or use of illegal drugs. Of course it's the long, slow road to hoe to gain that ability instead of the "Quaker Instant Oats" road via drugs.

On the upside if you practice the exercises everyday eventually you gain the ability to evoke such a being as you met *at will* - no drugs necessary.

That book is Magical Use of Thought-Forms by Dolores Ashcroft-Nowiki and J.H. Brennan.

I'm about half-way through it right now.

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Shimi
post Feb 21 2010, 07:09 PM
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I have to agree with Naimi and not only because you were rude.
Just for the record you didnt hesitate at all and even boasted about your drug use as quoted by you "me and a friend at excstacy and mushrooms"(and you can bet i didnt imagine seeing that since i copy pasted it from your original post >_>). First off a word for all you "we know what were doing" people out there. Do WHATEVER you like, but this is a public forum and from your attitude you were promoting the use of these drugs in the eyes of minors that visit this forum(they dont need any help as it is, since they are allready getting enough influance outside the forum, obviously). Whether for fun\recreation\magickal needs.
Further more, i am laughing my ass off for one simple reason. In shamanistic practices(if you even bothered probing the side effects of the drugs you were taking) mushrooms cause MASSIVE helucinations and you can bet your ass off that thats your brain going crazy from the toxins and i dont see any profound spiritual meaning in that since it can be simply a menifestation of your twisted inner self. FInd meaning in that and promote it if youd like, i can promise you it wont lead you to any mystical places or practical applications\results in the world beyond your imagination\mind.
Returning back to Naimi, I can say with confidence that there are manny things out there... bizzare and wonderfull that can be seen without drug abuse that can mean manny a thing(also explain a lot about the world we live in in depth). Whether visions occuring for a specific reason(which would be spiritual growth and understanding) or by accidental means that can also lead to interesting development.
Again, you wanna get something without doing the work. Fine, why not? but just so you know the reason people took drugs back then(no matter how manny hundreds\thousands of years ago) is because they didnt have all the computers and movies and enterteinment that we have today to do something interesting with their time other then work, be deseased and suffer all day.

Anyway i think i got my point across. In conclusion(regardless of your OP) any post that we write we could get opinions and replies that are not favorable. Dont act so surprised and defensive just because someone was against the use of drugs and doesnt find them as exciting when they face someone poisoning themselves and doesnt take it seriously. :S (and yes i have tried a few myself just out of curiousety, but excuse me for not finding them as "enterteining" and having much more fun with a clear mind)

And thats my opinion(on both matters).

This post has been edited by Shimi: Feb 21 2010, 07:15 PM

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Moonchilde
post Feb 22 2010, 10:14 PM
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First, I'd like to say that the lad's technique is sadly lacking and I don't condone sloppy.

But the rest? Meh, whatever.

QUOTE(Shimi @ Feb 21 2010, 08:09 PM) *

I have to agree with Naimi and not only because you were rude.
Just for the record you didnt hesitate at all and even boasted about your drug use as quoted by you "me and a friend at excstacy and mushrooms"(and you can bet i didnt imagine seeing that since i copy pasted it from your original post >_>). First off a word for all you "we know what were doing" people out there. Do WHATEVER you like, but this is a public forum and from your attitude you were promoting the use of these drugs in the eyes of minors that visit this forum(they dont need any help as it is, since they are allready getting enough influance outside the forum, obviously). Whether for fun\recreation\magickal needs.


I find this irrelevant. If a youngster is into magick, they are in at least as much danger as messing around with most classes of drugs. Arguments of the form "Think of the children" mean very little to me these days. They are often used when there is no other rational argument to be had, and when children are being controlled, not protected.

(my emhphasis)
QUOTE

Further more, i am laughing my ass off for one simple reason. In shamanistic practices(if you even bothered probing the side effects of the drugs you were taking) mushrooms cause MASSIVE helucinations and you can bet your ass off that thats your brain going crazy from the toxins and i dont see any profound spiritual meaning in that since it can be simply a menifestation of your twisted inner self. FInd meaning in that and promote it if youd like, i can promise you it wont lead you to any mystical places or practical applications\results in the world beyond your imagination\mind.


This part left me scratching my head, so could you clarify the statement? Perhaps you could tell me what you expect gnosis to actually consist of, on a personal level? To "know thyself"? I cannot reconcile your quote with these goals and I was hoping you could help me. To me, part of the road to the HGA (or whatever you want to call it) is indeed a tiptoe through Qlippoth (if not a high dive with a triple somersault). You can also meet the Goetia on more even terms. Yup, twisted inner self is right, but just how do you expect to straighten it out if you don't gnow it, first (or even know which parts *are* straight?)?

QUOTE

Returning back to Naimi, I can say with confidence that there are manny things out there... bizzare and wonderfull that can be seen without drug abuse that can mean manny a thing(also explain a lot about the world we live in in depth). Whether visions occuring for a specific reason(which would be spiritual growth and understanding) or by accidental means that can also lead to interesting development.


It seems that you equate any drug use with abuse, and I cannot think of any way to bridge that gap. While you are free to believe what you want to, I would hope I am incorrect here.

QUOTE

Again, you wanna get something without doing the work. Fine, why not? but just so you know the reason people took drugs back then(no matter how manny hundreds\thousands of years ago) is because they didnt have all the computers and movies and enterteinment that we have today to do something interesting with their time other then work, be deseased and suffer all day.


Okay, the Eleusian rights were a form of entertainment. Shamans just kick'n it. If you say so... there are no shortcuts, no one gest something without doing the work, somehow. drugs used properly tend to provide compressed experiences that then must be touched down and uncompressed into your natural life. anyway.

QUOTE

Anyway i think i got my point across. In conclusion(regardless of your OP) any post that we write we could get opinions and replies that are not favorable. Dont act so surprised and defensive just because someone was against the use of drugs and doesnt find them as exciting when they face someone poisoning themselves and doesnt take it seriously. :S (and yes i have tried a few myself just out of curiousety, but excuse me for not finding them as "enterteining" and having much more fun with a clear mind)

And thats my opinion(on both matters).


I don't see the point you were trying to get across -- other than that you don't like drugs and you don't like the way the poster presented themselves in the forum.

If you are interested in a further exploration or discussion of thee "taboo" topic, please read up, as some of your comments appear uninformed. I made a post to Drugs, Yea or Nay? (http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=6838 ) (sorry can't seem to get the hyperlink to work). It seems there are whole Cultures out there that are using drugs Spiritually (mostly) only tangentially related to indigenous use (go figure). Your casual dismissal is the position that seems to need support, from my viewpoint.

namaste,

moonchilde


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The present post is very long, simply because I had no leisure to make it shorter. (adapted from) Blaise Pascal

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Shimi
post Feb 23 2010, 03:46 PM
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"I find this irrelevant. If a youngster is into magick, they are in at least as much danger as messing around with most classes of drugs. Arguments of the form "Think of the children" mean very little to me these days. They are often used when there is no other rational argument to be had, and when children are being controlled, not protected."
"drugs used properly tend to provide compressed experiences that then must be touched down and uncompressed into your natural life."

Dear, Moonchilde, It is very rellevant since whatever you may think of the use of drugs and disagree with me on(which is entirely your right) I was replying to the content of this thread(and if you notice, unlike yourself, i actually answered the original post even with my additions...). Cause dissaproving my opinion of drugs alone has nothing to do with the original question and you could have just sent me a PM and saved me the trouble of quoting you back and poluting this thread.
I also dont care about children(not like i was planing on having any or adjucating the ones that allready exist...), I care about my values and it saddens me that even if you personaly like and approve the use of drugs(and believe me i am not blind or anything like that to take your excuses and ignore your personal "need" for the use of these drugs, hence defending them so fiercly) that you would make it seem essential(when it is far from it, unless it suits your own needs...) to others and... bare with me... PROMOTING their use(and yes, magick wise, there is more then one way to get what you want mind you). So think carefully about your own words. *wink* You, in fact, are being missleading. In a negetive way too. For example me smoking doesnt mean i think it is essential to others on a spiritual path(even if it was used thousadns and hundreds of years ago by manny, tobbaco that is, to "help" with spiritual journeys or what not). I would also never write about ciggaretes\alcohol\drugs as part of spiritual development. It may cause you the opposite of what you desire and you can quote me on that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (unless its meaningless visions of a drugged up mind) *cheers*

"This part left me scratching my head, so could you clarify the statement? Perhaps you could tell me what you expect gnosis to actually consist of, on a personal level? To "know thyself"? I cannot reconcile your quote with these goals and I was hoping you could help me."

Are you serious? then why should we even bother meditating or practicing? The answer was right before us all along. I should have saved myself the trouble of actually trying to understand myself and digging deeper by means of understanding my emotions\thoughts\dreams and contacting my subconcious and understanding the way it works and communicates. Instead i should have gone to a dealer and bought some quality marihuana or contacted some shaman friends to grab some shrooms off them. Dont worry... its obvious after all? how could i even disagree on such a valid and ridiculous disproof of my opinions just because your way of working in these matters depends on mind altering substances that could cause brain damage. Silly me. >_> (good enough of an explanation? or would you like me to eleborate?)
This just proves to me that you know very little of yourself if you need to harm your own body and miss all the wonderfull "signals" and "clues" it allready provides you with on a daily basis to try and understand yourself better. But hey(!) I guess to each their own. I can see a truck and understand that it would hurt me standing in front of it while it is moving but some just need to step up a couple of times(if they make it out of the hospital) to make sure.

"It seems that you equate any drug use with abuse, and I cannot think of any way to bridge that gap. While you are free to believe what you want to, I would hope I am incorrect here."

I am sorry but your "hopes" are of little concern to me. Further more, the person seemed "bragging" about the situation and quite fammilier with what he was doing(as in he didnt specify it was his first time). Meaning he must have done it multiple times(probably manny, at various parties). Maybe partialy assumed by me from his post, but(!) he is allways welcome to correct my assumptions and i am sure he doesnt need you to put me in my place. Right? So into the catagory of drug abuse it falls still. I dont understand whats so outragous and unclear about my response, why dont you tell me? (in a less "who are you to even talk way" this time)

"I don't see the point you were trying to get across -- other than that you don't like drugs and you don't like the way the poster presented themselves in the forum."

This has nothing to do with the character of the person writing the OP and it is just a firm belief of mine. If it is wrong or right it is up to me to decide when responding to a post and giving my opinion(as well as if i wish to share it or not) and not up to you to lecture me on my own way of thinking or respreseting myself in the forum(funny isnt it how you act the same way you dissaprove of?). When i want to ask someone if my thoughts are valid or not, I will do just that by opening my own thread in a general area or PMing you so you could give me your lovely opinion(as well as negetive or positive opinions of others). If you are so terribly worried about me being rude to someone(as you can see in other posts i am quite polite) i think when they talk in a negetive way with others then there is no need to hold back when responding to them as well. Just because they do not agree with someone or get an answer they dont want to hear doesnt make those peoples opinions less valid. Keep it in mind.(doesnt mean they are absolutly right either, on every occassion. Try to take everything in proportion.)

"It seems there are whole Cultures out there that are using drugs Spiritually"

Whole triebs of people living in the past(without medical care i would add) doesnt mean we have to ammulate them or that their way is the only correct one. You want to be a cave man, go ahead(just try not to pull a womans hair when dragging her to your cave, i dont think they like it anymore...).

-As a personal addition if some opinions are taboo to share just because they dont follow some people's beliefs regarding this forum... then its rediculous to call it a forum to begin with. Disagreeing with someone and thinking diffrently is not a taboo in my view though. Also if you personaly think me uninformed then that is entirely your right to do so. I never forced anyone to believe in what i say or to take it seriously and follow the instructions and view on life that i do(correct me if im wrong while reading any of my previous posts or this one) it concludes allways in being "my opinion" and not "FACTS OF LIFE".

In conclusion you are still wrong in my view and your quoting abillities and awe inspiring words did not change my mind or impress me if they were supposed to. Your path seems more of the one dependent on the views of various authors and seems to lack any personal ideas of your own. That is lovely for you and you have my blessing, but it does not mean there arent any other paths to magick that do not share your view. Paths that are not mainstream or dependent on more effort when it comes to personal hard work to finding the answers you are after(rather then taking everything written by someone else, that could be no more remarkable then the everage hobo on the street, as fact). When instead of giving you written philosophy in the path i chose it relies on passing down practical information by verbal explanation. So dont be so closed minded, and believe me i understand where your coming from. Even if i dont like drug use and against it when it comes to mixing it with magickal practices(whatever they may be) I wouldnt stop anyone allready using them from doing so for whatever reason it may be or condeming them for it. I have read when i was younger goetia and lots of others booke, any i could find online or otherwise and sadly i dont remmember much of them since my current practice(for the last 8 years) does not have room to include them as practical or philosophical. Just because they are not part of my practice or views it does not, by any means, make your practice which heavily(if not completely) relies on this material any better or more valid and your views any more concrete(even if stolen from authors writing these books and not even your own in fact).

So what happaned here just now? I think it was you making an ass of yourself, whether you used colourfull language or not(sadly i do occasionaly use it, bad habbit i must admit). Making an elephant out of a mouse so to speak. I hope your happy with it.
Any further disscusion you may turn to my PM to continue, I would be happy to "Illuminate" any ignorence you have about practices that do not include your own and their relevence to magick.

Best of luck to both you and the original OP and i do hope(not sarcasticaly) that your drug use will promote you along your paths one day, even though i dissaprove, i would just hope you either talk about it so favoribly either in a "18+" restricted forum or at least be less "everyone practicing magick needs it" with your opinions.
I dont know how this works in a country other then Israel for sure, but here we have strict laws against this sort of thing and being the moderator of a forum of my own i dissaprove of such conversations promoting the use of drugs simply because i dont want to be sued or my site blacklisted for all the teens surfing our forum and reading that content. So excuse me for actually not wanting such a thing to happan to this forum(and it being possibly closed as a result) just because its been enterteining for me to write here for the last week or so(even though i did forget about this place for a long time before that). No matter how great a sorcerer or whatever you may catagorise yourself as you may be, it wont change the minds of the parrants which children taking drugs(as part of their magickal path to understanding) tolled them that after reading your post they felt it to be essential to do so just to get ahead. (being 41 years old doesnt make you wise... it just makes you old. Sorry but its true...)

All as a personal opinion of mine of course. Should be taken as such.(even though i took the liberty to be a bit more personal, by your own example moonchilde)

Shimi.-as one who allways enjoys quoting back and sharing his own opinion.

This post has been edited by Shimi: Feb 23 2010, 04:17 PM

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Moonchilde
post Feb 24 2010, 06:43 PM
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Hi Shimi, apparently we got off on the wrong foot. While I'm not sure that you will view this in any better light I feel compelled to at least try since you took the time to respond to me.

Your Original Statement:
this is a public forum and from your attitude you were promoting the use of these drugs in the eyes of minors that visit this forum(they dont need any help as it is, since they are allready getting enough influance outside the forum, obviously). Whether for fun\recreation\magickal needs.

My Response:
"I find this irrelevant. If a youngster is into magick, they are in at least as much danger as messing around with most classes of drugs. Arguments of the form "Think of the children" mean very little to me these days. They are often used when there is no other rational argument to be had, and when children are being controlled, not protected."

Your Response:
Dear, Moonchilde, It is very rellevant since whatever you may think of the use of drugs and disagree with me on(which is entirely your right) I was replying to the content of this thread(and if you notice, unlike yourself, i actually answered the original post even with my additions...). Cause dissaproving my opinion of drugs alone has nothing to do with the original question and you could have just sent me a PM and saved me the trouble of quoting you back and poluting this thread.

I was not dismissing the relevancy of your entire post or your opinion, but the argument "Think of the children!" in regards to censorship (which you also use again in your latest post). In my mind, it's simply not a valid argument.

I also thought that my reply was directly relevant to this thread, and in no way 'polluting' it. It serves as another opinion as to the relevancy of the original experience. To be more specific - all experience is valid. Period. The work you do beforehand, the work while in the experience, and the work that you do afterward are all key, just like any other type of peak experience.

My discussion with Casadeluna (is it real, is it valid, just what is going on here?) is being woven like a subtext throughout my posts, but I will try to be more direct while continuing our conversation.

Do I think I should tell Casadeluna how to interpret the experience? No. I have no way to know to begin without even having met them, much less without discussions about background and philosophies. Much less without actually having been present at the time!

Do I think the experience is valid? Yes. It does not quite matter if it was a manifestation of external reality or internal. In order to furthur work with such experiences it is often necessary to continue to examine them, sometimes for years. Journals are just as essential here as in dreams. Examine how the experience made you feel, think react. Perhaps try visualizations to repeat the experience. Maybe draw what you saw. Maybe meditate on it. Whatever your supporting activities are. Try and figure out why you experienced what you did and what it means about yourself.

My reply was not meant to be a total reveal - that's what all those recommended readings are for!

I care about my values and it saddens me that even if you personaly like and approve the use of drugs(and believe me i am not blind or anything like that to take your excuses and ignore your personal "need" for the use of these drugs, hence defending them so fiercly) that you would make it seem essential(when it is far from it, unless it suits your own needs...) to others and... bare with me... PROMOTING their use(and yes, magick wise, there is more then one way to get what you want mind you).

I think I see where your confusion stems from; your lack of reading comprehension and my lack of writing skill. Self gnosis is what is essential. Drugs are not. Qlipoth and the Goetia are two examples of frameworks for self gnosis. You want to reach your Higher Self? You better be prepared to reach *down* just like your Higher Self is doing to reach you!

What I am asserting is that drugs can be a valid path for gnosis, not that they are an essential element. I hope we cleared that up, at least.

I agree that this thread is not the place for a meta-analysis of what we both wrote here. I invite and encourage you to start a thread in Fight Club where we can continue that analysis. I know I'd like to continue this. Why don't I start it myself? Because I'd like you to also take some ownership in this process and I don't know if you really want to participate.

I'm going to try to ignore the rest of your ad-hominims and personal attacks, as well as the self created furor you managed to make from your mis-reading. However (as a taste of Fight Club), let me just say that I have found your posts to be full of fear and anger. You strike out not only at the illusion you created from my post but the presenter (me, a real person) as well. (I've bolded a few in this post to help you get started on your own analysis, should you choose).

I see this as stemming from the cognitive dissonance of some Imprint that you have yet to deal with (or perhaps even are unaware of) coming into contact with strong Ideas that are competing or conflicting with your Imprint, and It's fighting back.

I would also never write about ciggaretes\alcohol\drugs as part of spiritual development. It may cause you the opposite of what you desire and you can quote me on that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (unless its meaningless visions of a drugged up mind) *cheers*

Is there any other reason (besides children) why you feel that we shouldn't let people know that drugs can be used as a part of spiritual development? Or is that "fact" itself an issue for you?

Original comment:
i dont see any profound spiritual meaning in that since it can be simply a menifestation of your twisted inner self. FInd meaning in that and promote it if youd like, i can promise you it wont lead you to any mystical places or practical applications\results in the world beyond your imagination\mind.

My Reply:
"This part left me scratching my head, so could you clarify the statement? Perhaps you could tell me what you expect gnosis to actually consist of, on a personal level? To "know thyself"? I cannot reconcile your quote with these goals and I was hoping you could help me."

Your Reply:
Are you serious? then why should we even bother meditating or practicing? The answer was right before us all along. I should have saved myself the trouble of actually trying to understand myself and digging deeper by means of understanding my emotions\thoughts\dreams and contacting my subconcious and understanding the way it works and communicates.

Yes, I am serious. The problem I have with your original statement is that it reads like this:

* a manifestation of your inner self to your conscious mind is not a spiritual experience
* self gnosis doesn't have any practical applications/results
* your Mind is not a spiritual place
* knowing your Mind/imagination is not gnosis

Most spiritual practices have principles that are wholly opposite the reading I got from your original statement. Spiritual drug use also adheres to these same types of principles.

Instead i should have gone to a dealer and bought some quality marihuana or contacted some shaman friends to grab some shrooms off them. Dont worry... its obvious after all? how could i even disagree on such a valid and ridiculous disproof of my opinions just because your way of working in these matters depends on mind altering substances that could cause brain damage. Silly me. (good enough of an explanation? or would you like me to eleborate?)

You seem to believe that spiritual use of drugs is some kind of passive activity that requires no work, but that's not the case. As I said in my original post *everyone* has to do the work, period. The start of which, in this case, happens to be a bunch of reading because that's where the sources are. Beef up on systems similar to the types of experiences you want, such as the Bardo realms, Buddhist Naraka, the Hindu realms, K&C of the HGA, whatever. Read up on books/authors that are recommended. You need to be able to contain and ground the outrageous nature of some of these experiences within some set of prebuilt frameworks unless or until you have enough Knowledge and Understanding to create your own.

One should also begin a daily meditation practice of some type. Before taking any substances, one should be able to sit for some time. Afterwards ones practices will be informed by the experiences one has had and will serve as containment vessel for the continuing process. This allows one to integrate the experience, the knowledge and understanding it brings more smoothly.

I think the OP should also do the work, if they wish to continue using these methods, and gave a starting point for a more scientific and serious exploration. But I didn't wish to beat Casadeluna over the head about it, merely provide possible avenues towards more responsible use. I thought my first line was quite scathing enough: "First, I'd like to say that the lad's technique is sadly lacking and I don't condone sloppy."

I'm not trying to disprove your opinion - that's impossible, I am trying to figure out what your opinion is, what facts you base your opinions that on, and inform your opinion with additional resources.

Do you really believe that all or most mind altering substances cause brain damage?

And, yes, I would indeed like for you to elaborate on the questions I asked, or at least answer them. Just to be clear: personal/meta-level -> Fight Club, Ideas -> where presented (in this case, here). Simple declarative statements would be great.

This just proves to me that you know very little of yourself if you need to harm your own body and miss all the wonderfull "signals" and "clues" it allready provides you with on a daily basis to try and understand yourself better. But hey(!) I guess to each their own. I can see a truck and understand that it would hurt me standing in front of it while it is moving but some just need to step up a couple of times(if they make it out of the hospital) to make sure.

Do you believe that all drugs are harmful, such that you equate them with walking out in front of a truck?

"It seems that you equate any drug use with abuse, and I cannot think of any way to bridge that gap. While you are free to believe what you want to, I would hope I am incorrect here."

I am sorry but your "hopes" are of little concern to me. Further more, the person seemed "bragging" about the situation and quite fammilier with what he was doing(as in he didnt specify it was his first time). Meaning he must have done it multiple times(probably manny, at various parties). Maybe partialy assumed by me from his post, but(!) he is allways welcome to correct my assumptions and i am sure he doesnt need you to put me in my place. Right? So into the catagory of drug abuse it falls still. I dont understand whats so outragous and unclear about my response, why dont you tell me? (in a less "who are you to even talk way" this time)

So, do you believe that any recreational drug use is drug abuse? That no valid experiences can be had in settings of recreational drug use?

This drives to the heart of the original post, and to how Casadeluna and everyone else reading this frames their experiences. The issue is that how you frame to a large part determines the success of the outcome (Sound familiar?), and your 'frame', suffice to say, won't work in this setting.

this isn't about me putting you in your place. this is a discussion regarding the validity of a whole range of experiences, in the context of one of these experiences.

Also, I would say that many people who become serious about using these tools (as in magick) start in places with techniques similar to Casadeluna (casually, that is). It doesn't mean that's a good place to end up, but *wherever you are* is a fine place to start on any path.

"It seems there are whole Cultures out there that are using drugs Spiritually"

Whole triebs of people living in the past(without medical care i would add) doesnt mean we have to ammulate them or that their way is the only correct one. You want to be a cave man, go ahead(just try not to pull a womans hair when dragging her to your cave, i dont think they like it anymore...).

Nope. Living, modern folk. You may even know a few personally. Techno-shamans, psychonauts, sub genii, Discordians, ontological guerillas, transhumanists, collectives, etc. Scattered across the globe in small to large communities, some distributed, some more centralized. Spiritual drug users, multiple Cultures. And nary a woman getting dragged into a cave. Oh my! If one has the desire, these communities can be readily found.

... but it does not mean there arent any other paths to magick that do not share your view. Paths that are not mainstream or dependent on more effort when it comes to personal hard work to finding the answers you are after (rather then taking everything written by someone else, that could be no more remarkable then the everage hobo on the street, as fact).

Let me say this again: nobody gets away with not doing the work. It seems silly to me to say that some paths are 'dependent on more effort'. It's like saying it somehow takes more work to raise 1 Kilo 1 meter than 2.2 pounds 3.28 feet, and that the result is invalid if you use metric instead of english units.

I would also like to point out that talking to the average 'crazy' hobo on the street is an excellent suggestion! regardless of your Path. I would recommend it highly, especially if it happens synchronistically (that is, don't go seeking). If you can't glean any thread of enlightenment from the conversation you didn't know how to open enough to understand what was there.

So what happaned here just now? I think it was you making an ass of yourself, whether you used colourfull language or not(sadly i do occasionaly use it, bad habbit i must admit). Making an elephant out of a mouse so to speak. I hope your happy with it.
Any further disscusion you may turn to my PM to continue, I would be happy to "Illuminate" any ignorence you have about practices that do not include your own and their relevence to magick.


Well, at least one of us has made an ass of themselves. Perhaps both. You are certainly welcome to discuss this point in the Fight Club thread. I look forward to your Illumination. At this point, PM is a cowards way forward. Anything I would to say to you in private I would say in public. I think it would be insightful if multiple people joined or at least were able to read the analysis (I would certainly welcome other outside opinions, especially in regards to my own behaviour in this thread).

I do also believe that it is important to let Casadeluna, and everyone else reading this thread know that there are a multitude of other viewpoint than "Drugs are bad, mmmmkay?" and in that sense your post did contain an elephant, not the mouse you speak of. I would recommend you read Zig Zag Zen if you get a chance, as it presents a reasonable pro/con dialogue in the context of Zen Buddhism.

I dont know how this works in a country other then Israel for sure, but here we have strict laws against ... No matter how great a sorcerer or whatever you may catagorise yourself as you may be, it wont change the minds of the parrants which children taking drugs(as part of their magickal path to understanding) tolled them that after reading your post they felt it to be essential to do so just to get ahead. (being 41 years old doesnt make you wise... it just makes you old. Sorry but its true...)

While the moderators of the forum may Do as They Will, they have free speech in the US (i think this forum is US based?). I think it's sad that Israel is so repressed that this could not be talked of openly. Perhaps that repression the source of your Imprint.

I've already been quite clear on your "Think of the Children" argument vis a vis censorship. Now, for a logical exercise:

If you could either explain why magick itself is not a dangerous pursuit and thus young adults should be able to access this site or explain why young adults can handle magick (if properly utilized) but not drugs (if properly utilized), or some other logic that supports your point, it would be great. Assertions like young adults can properly utilize magick but not drugs will need some citations, I would think.

All as a personal opinion of mine of course. Should be taken as such.(even though i took the liberty to be a bit more personal, by your own example moonchilde)

If you could point out what I wrote that you feel gave you the liberty to post these personal attacks I would welcome it in Fight Club. Even if my position was as outrageous as you thought that doesn't in my mind to excuse your behaviour towards me on a personal level. I don't think you should even try to pretend that it does but that's what the other thread is for.

namaste,

moonchilde


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The present post is very long, simply because I had no leisure to make it shorter. (adapted from) Blaise Pascal

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Shimi
post Feb 25 2010, 02:52 PM
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Again, the "think of the children!" quote is only your own. The reason your still being irrellevant is because you are so dedicated in making your opinion of my words when they are not the original poster hence polluting the thread.

On the bigger picture lets agree do disagree.. but on the smaller one he did basically ask for everyones thoughts about what happaned to him. Thats exactly what he got. Whether we were there or not(since we will obviously never be unless we know them outside the forum). Just take everything in proportion, since saying that we could all be wrong. Both you and I. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (regarding the drugs in general.. it was originaly meant as in the use of them in magickal practice which you of course ignored, but why should i repeat myself?)

Im sorry if you feel the need to "battle" me when no battle has even been going on(other then me replying and returning the favor since i am firm believer in returning whats been thrown at me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), but if it was one im sorry to say i have allready won. What else is there to tell you? When i said everything on my mind(in great deteil).

-You can have a typing online competition with someone else who has nothing better to do, id rather either a: get to know interesting people or b: write down something that could be of value to another(most times).

*Also if you actually wanted to know my opinions, or cared about them(same goes for me about your own), it wouldnt have sounded as if you were trying to put words in my mouth and eleborate about my opinions rather then asking about them. So in conclusion, this game you play with words... very VERY ineffective when it is confronted with people who are above the age of highschool. Seeing what you want to see is not taking an interest, not to mention ignoring the actual expllanations and eleborations behind what a person writes down. Just sad. I dont think we will ever talk beyond this point. :S Whats the point?

*takes a bow before the grand master that knows all and shouldnt be challanged* And id love it if you made another long and tedious post on my words. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (sadly i wont be there to read how much you love yourself while adjucating the missfortuned ones that happened to think diffrently to yourself)

Just to top it off! DRUGS ARE BAD!!!! EVILLLLL!!! DANGEROUS!!!! xDDD And now i take my leave to more interesting posts(if there are any i havent responded to yet). I wont add any more then this since weve allready both said enough to make this not very interesting to other readers but ourselves hehe. Though anyone who wants to inflate your ego and knows you allready is more then welcome to write down how wrong i am and how much they agree with you. Why make another post where i basicaly write my opinions over again? when they can just finish the job here and add them after my reply. Just like the song goes "if if it makes you(!) happy!!!! it isnt so bad" :3

This post has been edited by Shimi: Feb 25 2010, 03:47 PM

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bym
post Feb 25 2010, 07:39 PM
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Gentlemen,
Greetings! The continued banter about personal styles of expressing opinion and the discussion of drug-use in magic as expounded by your opinion is hereby terminated in this thread!
Please remain on topic. You both have some interesting ideas that may be better suited to Fight Club or discussed in another thread...
Thank you! Have a great day!
-Bym, Admin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/i_triangle.gif)


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Rest in Peace Bym.
http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=7662

~The Sacred Magick Management

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