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Sacred Magick Forums _ Ceremonial Magick _ Q&a: Lbrp And The Pentagram Rituals

Posted by: Nero May 11 2007, 09:04 AM

The LRP, the GRP, and the SPR seem to come up over and over again. I consider these foundational rituals and even those who do not use them at least started this path with the study of them. Yet there seems every month another question about them and from the questions there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding out there.

It has been suggested to me that I should write up a class at least on the lesser pentagram ritual but I am unable to do so for various reasons. Mainly much of the nitty gritty elements and inner energy work with the vibrations and all I learned through membership in my order and due to my oath I cannot discuss them. So in essence if I did in fact write a class it would be pretty much what is already written and diluted enough that there would be no point.

But it occurs to me that I might be able to answer specific questions that anyone might have. Obviously I will answer them as best as I can and if it encroaches upon my oath I will just dance around it or just not answer the question. It is a pain but it is the best I can do.

So if anyone has anything they have always wanted to know about any of the pentagram rituals then go ahead and ask.

Posted by: Seth'sCall May 13 2007, 12:45 AM

Greetings Nero,

Thanks for the this post, for i still have tons of Q's about the rituals and as i study further, one answer seem to give birth to 3 or more Q's hmm.gif.

Starting with LBRP -

1. What does the 'sign of the Enterer' and the 'Sign of Silence' mean?
2. What is the meaning of 'Sign of Osiris slain'?
3. What do the colors of the Pentagrams, Circle & Hexagram signify?

Thanks again. angel.gif

Posted by: Mchawi May 13 2007, 06:47 AM

Is it viable to have a closing seal in each pent in the lbrp? If so what sign and prehaps god name should/could be used ?

Posted by: Nero May 14 2007, 07:34 AM

QUOTE(Seth'sCall @ May 13 2007, 02:45 AM) *
1. What does the 'sign of the Enterer' and the 'Sign of Silence' mean?

The sign of the enterer otherwise called the projection sign is the sign of Horus the elder. It does as the name suggests and projects the energy of the vibrated divine name toward that quarter and pentagram. The sign is a forceful sign of Horus, reference Geburah and the 27th path of Peh which are associated with mars and Horus.

The sign of silence is the sign of Hoor-par-kraat, or Horus the younger. The babe in the blue egg of silence. It is a protection sign. It stops and protects you from the energy you just projected with the sign of the enterer from rebounding back at yourself.

QUOTE(Seth'sCall @ May 13 2007, 02:45 AM) *
2. What is the meaning of 'Sign of Osiris slain'?

You are forming a cross, sacrifice in order to be reborn and transformation as Osiris was. Also a reference to tiphareth.

QUOTE(Seth'sCall @ May 13 2007, 02:45 AM) *
3. What do the colors of the Pentagrams, Circle & Hexagram signify?


The pentagrams are seen as blue or white. There is no real significance here as that is just how they appear when viewed on the astral plane. The hexagram is gold as it is the sign of the macrocosm when combined with the pentagrams then you have 5=6 or the great work.


QUOTE(Mchawi @ May 13 2007, 08:47 AM) *
Is it viable to have a closing seal in each pent in the lbrp? If so what sign and prehaps god name should/could be used ?


The sign of silence is the sign that seals the energy flow you just began with the sign of the enterer. The rite as a whole is sealed with the qabalaic cross.

Posted by: Seth'sCall May 14 2007, 08:47 AM

Greetings Nero,

Thanks for the reply.

On LBRH

1. What is 'Yod Nun Resh Yod' mean?

Thanks angel.gif

Posted by: Nero May 14 2007, 08:52 AM

QUOTE(Seth'sCall @ May 14 2007, 10:47 AM) *
1. What is 'Yod Nun Resh Yod' mean?


It spells INRI in hebrew.

EDIT:
Instead of just answering the question out right let's see if you can figure it out yourself. Where is Yod Resh and Nun on the tree of life and how does that relate to IAO?

Posted by: Mchawi May 14 2007, 08:53 AM

QUOTE
The sign of silence is the sign that seals the energy flow you just began with the sign of the enterer. The rite as a whole is sealed with the qabalaic cross.


I don't use the sign of the enterer, in some texts its advised to ''stab'' the pent to charge it. Personally I amass the elemental energy, bringing it up from my energy points, collecting it from my aura into a ball before throwing it into the pent/hex projecting the vibration after it whilst ''stabbing'' its center. Only use the sign of silence at the very end of all the rituals.

As it is an earth banishing ritual I guess it'd make sence to use the sign for taurus. Haven't been able to try it out yet, do get the feeling that it may be too vacumous.

Hope to have some questions regarding the invoking rituals soon. Can't think of any other questions for now.

Thanks

Posted by: Nero May 14 2007, 09:11 AM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ May 14 2007, 10:53 AM) *
I don't use the sign of the enterer, in some texts its advised to ''stab'' the pent to charge it. Personally I amass the elemental energy, bringing it up from my energy points, collecting it from my aura into a ball before throwing it into the pent/hex projecting the vibration after it whilst ''stabbing'' its center. Only use the sign of silence at the very end of all the rituals.

As it is an earth banishing ritual I guess it'd make sence to use the sign for taurus. Haven't been able to try it out yet, do get the feeling that it may be too vacumous.

Hope to have some questions regarding the invoking rituals soon. Can't think of any other questions for now.

Thanks


I am not sure what you mean. The LBRP and the LIRP has no elemental correspondences. In it's performance you should use the two signs, always together, as they help with the energy. The greater and supreme version does have elemental correspondences and the pentagram of earth does use the sign of Taurus. So if you wanted to just banish earth then use the Greater Ritual of the Pentagram and use the earth pentagram in each quarter with the sign.

Posted by: Mchawi May 14 2007, 09:27 AM

QUOTE(Nero @ May 14 2007, 10:11 AM) *
I am not sure what you mean. The LBRP and the LIRP has no elemental correspondences.


You confused me with this last time, ok the LBRP dosen't have elemental correspondances but thats only because one is banishing the elements at each quater leaving space behind for the fith element, spirit. If its a banishing ritual what are you banishing at each quater exactly if not the base elements for all things?

As such it then makes sence to seal each pent with a sign of some sort as the sign of silence seals and ends the entire ritual and the LBRP is only the start of the prescribed daily rituals.

Not there enough to talk on the Lesser Invoking Ritual but again, what are you invoking if not an element or aspect of said element?

confused012.gif

Posted by: Nero May 14 2007, 09:45 AM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ May 14 2007, 11:27 AM) *
You confused me with this last time, ok the LBRP dosen't have elemental correspondances but thats only because one is banishing the elements at each quater leaving space behind for the fith element, spirit. If its a banishing ritual what are you banishing at each quater exactly if not the base elements for all things?


No not exactly. This has caused more confusion than anything I can think of.

Ok, the pentagram you draw is drawn the same way as the earth pentagram but it is not the same. Technically it is the pentagram of assiah.

Generally the pentagram used in the LIRP is called just the "lesser Invoking" pentagram and in the LBRP it is the lesser banishing pentagram. The best way to think of it is when invoking, you are drawing spirit down into matter and conversely when banishing drawing spirit out of matter. Do not mean elemental spirit, but rather just a general term like LVX.

Does that help?

Posted by: Mchawi May 14 2007, 10:13 AM

QUOTE(Nero @ May 14 2007, 10:45 AM) *
No not exactly. This has caused more confusion than anything I can think of.

Ok, the pentagram you draw is drawn the same way as the earth pentagram but it is not the same. Technically it is the pentagram of assiah.

Generally the pentagram used in the LIRP is called just the "lesser Invoking" pentagram and in the LBRP it is the lesser banishing pentagram. The best way to think of it is when invoking, you are drawing spirit down into matter and conversely when banishing drawing spirit out of matter. Do not mean elemental spirit, but rather just a general term like LVX.

Does that help?


I get that but as Malkuth its repondance is earth as in Assiah so it is overall an earth banishing ritual.

Why are elemental associations given to the Archs?

You said this in another thread;

QUOTE
As for the pentagrams, he is turning the lesser pentagram ritual into a elemental ritual which it is not. It is a common mistake. If you want an elemental ritual then use the greater pentagram ritual.


I have also thought about using the individual elemental pents in banishing and now I'm just confused and annoyed.... can you please explain what you think the LBRPs function is exactly? I'm following Kraigs text here, he states that you should associate the elements with the LBRP and I have spoken to other C.M's who have explained it in the same way. Banishing the elements in Malkuth (earth).

What is the function of the LBRP & what is being banished exactly? Understand that the Archs are being invoked to guard the gates.

From where I sit each night I can't be doing much wrong.

Not being rude or anything just like to know what I'm doing exactly take things like this seriously being a bit of a perfectionist and all.

Htp

Posted by: Nero May 14 2007, 10:34 AM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ May 14 2007, 12:13 PM) *
I get that but as Malkuth its repondance is earth as in Assiah so it is overall an earth banishing ritual.

Why are elemental associations given to the Archs?


No all the elements are within assiah of malkuth, hence the four fold color view you see of malkuth. You are banishing the gross of assiah of malkuth.

The archangels are tricky. They are not the direct elements per say although they are in the mix as well. When we say fire we do not just mean elemental fire. We also mean Yod, atzuluth, king scale, etc etc. So michael would not just be over elemental fire but all the associations. So taken together you have all four worlds in qabalah and hence the all, the everything.

Or YHVH, or Father, Mother, Son, and Daughter, etc.

Posted by: Aurelius May 18 2007, 04:28 PM

hey allthough ive been studying magickal arts since i was 14 and have many books/resorces i havent heard much about srp, and i would like it if you could give me some info/refernces to it so that i may add it to my own reference collection, thanx alot =]

Posted by: Nero May 21 2007, 10:06 AM

QUOTE(Aurelius @ May 18 2007, 06:28 PM) *
hey allthough ive been studying magickal arts since i was 14 and have many books/resorces i havent heard much about srp, and i would like it if you could give me some info/refernces to it so that i may add it to my own reference collection, thanx alot =]


I do not understand the question. What about the SRP do you want to know?

Posted by: Aurelius May 21 2007, 06:41 PM

QUOTE(Nero @ May 21 2007, 05:06 PM) *
I do not understand the question. What about the SRP do you want to know?

just general pratice of it realy if you wouldnt mind =]

Posted by: Nero May 22 2007, 09:34 AM

QUOTE(Aurelius @ May 21 2007, 08:41 PM) *
just general pratice of it realy if you wouldnt mind =]


The pentagram material in the Golden Dawn book covers it adequately as well as more modern sources such as Modern Magick.

Posted by: Mchawi May 23 2007, 04:47 AM

Hello again

Few more questions... I don't understand why we're told to do the Q.Cross so many times when doing the full daily practice, the LBRP and the BRH. It amounts to three times one at the beginning, once in the middle, once at the end as you know. Thing is the LVX part of the ritual is more or less the Q.Cross so is it viable to leave out the end Q.C and do the LVX? I'm now doing the LVX at the end and it seems a bit silly doing the Q.C after the LVX.

Posted by: Nero May 23 2007, 07:15 AM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ May 23 2007, 06:47 AM) *
Hello again

Few more questions... I don't understand why we're told to do the Q.Cross so many times when doing the full daily practice, the LBRP and the BRH. It amounts to three times one at the beginning, once in the middle, once at the end as you know. Thing is the LVX part of the ritual is more or less the Q.Cross so is it viable to leave out the end Q.C and do the LVX? I'm now doing the LVX at the end and it seems a bit silly doing the Q.C after the LVX.


By LVX I assume you mean the Analysis of the Keyword.

The QC and the Analysis of the Keyword are used in conjunction with other rituals but are actual a ritual all to themselves and have very different purposes from each other. The QC is a mild invocation of the higherself and then affirms and aligns the subtle bodies with the tree of life within the sphere of sensation. In essence you are saying you are one with the universe and one with the divine. This promotes equilibrium and asserts your right to control the universe.

The Analysis of the Keyword on the other hand is a very different ritual as it is a transformative ritual invocation of IAO, the great cycle of death and rebirth. The version of the keyword used with the Rose Cross ritual also has a invocation of LVX attached as well.

As you can see you cannot substitute one for the other because they have very different symbolism and results. Now if you open with a QC, then go to a LBRP, then are moving directly into the Analysis of the Keyword followed by the LBRH and just wish to skip the closing QC of the LBRP then that should be ok. I do not do it as I find the QC a great way to sort of bridge the rituals into the next one but if you feel you gain from it in your practice then go ahead.

Posted by: Mchawi May 24 2007, 08:34 AM

QUOTE(Nero @ May 23 2007, 08:15 AM) *
By LVX I assume you mean the Analysis of the Keyword.

The QC and the Analysis of the Keyword are used in conjunction with other rituals but are actual a ritual all to themselves and have very different purposes from each other. The QC is a mild invocation of the higherself and then affirms and aligns the subtle bodies with the tree of life within the sphere of sensation. In essence you are saying you are one with the universe and one with the divine. This promotes equilibrium and asserts your right to control the universe.

The Analysis of the Keyword on the other hand is a very different ritual as it is a transformative ritual invocation of IAO, the great cycle of death and rebirth. The version of the keyword used with the Rose Cross ritual also has a invocation of LVX attached as well.

As you can see you cannot substitute one for the other because they have very different symbolism and results. Now if you open with a QC, then go to a LBRP, then are moving directly into the Analysis of the Keyword followed by the LBRH and just wish to skip the closing QC of the LBRP then that should be ok. I do not do it as I find the QC a great way to sort of bridge the rituals into the next one but if you feel you gain from it in your practice then go ahead.


Thanks.

Not sure who it is, probably Kraig who says you can swap one for the other. Can see it makes sence doing the Q.C three times but I wondered of its relevance if Kraig says you can swap one for the other. The book you reccomended to me, QBL magick by Chris, has the banishing in the BRH first then the Analysis afterwards... at fist I thought it was a bit off but it makes sence to banish ALL influences before doing the analysis rather than banishing the influence of Assiah, doing the Analysis then banishing planetary forces. I have taken to doing it in the order Chris has mentioned.

Ok... in the BRH you are banishing the influence of Saturn, planetary forces. In the LBRP you are banishing the influence of earthly forces in Assiah or what your understanding of it may be. So what is the QBL association with the BRH?

Also... Chris states that theres a need to keep a constant line when etching the Hexagrams in the BRH... Kraig has one using the appropriate Hexes rather than the Unicursal which I think is good as each Hex is individual. Still, keeping a constant line makes sence, they obviously merge but do you think the Unicursal is better to use than the individual hexes? What are your experiences with both? I have only felt a Hex once and am beginning to think the Unicursal works better.

Posted by: Mchawi May 26 2007, 06:34 AM

Had a good ritual last night after missing a few days, am now not so sure about doing the analysis after the BRH. Kinda missed flying into Yud-Nun-Resh-Yud straight after the LBRP and it felt odd doing the Q.C after the Analysis. Probably me moving from a comfort zone more than anytihng. Still, is it prehaps that the Analysis brings celestial light to earth for one to then push out the planetary influences within it?

Not to mull over details .lol.

Posted by: Nero May 29 2007, 07:33 AM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ May 24 2007, 10:34 AM) *
Thanks.

Not sure who it is, probably Kraig who says you can swap one for the other. Can see it makes sence doing the Q.C three times but I wondered of its relevance if Kraig says you can swap one for the other. The book you reccomended to me, QBL magick by Chris, has the banishing in the BRH first then the Analysis afterwards... at fist I thought it was a bit off but it makes sence to banish ALL influences before doing the analysis rather than banishing the influence of Assiah, doing the Analysis then banishing planetary forces. I have taken to doing it in the order Chris has mentioned.

Ok... in the BRH you are banishing the influence of Saturn, planetary forces. In the LBRP you are banishing the influence of earthly forces in Assiah or what your understanding of it may be. So what is the QBL association with the BRH?

Also... Chris states that theres a need to keep a constant line when etching the Hexagrams in the BRH... Kraig has one using the appropriate Hexes rather than the Unicursal which I think is good as each Hex is individual. Still, keeping a constant line makes sence, they obviously merge but do you think the Unicursal is better to use than the individual hexes? What are your experiences with both? I have only felt a Hex once and am beginning to think the Unicursal works better.


The ritual as taught by the Golden Dawn was open with the QC and close with the keyword. The same for the rose cross ritual. I think Kraig might have switched the orders but it has been so long since I have looked through his book that I do not remember.

The hexagram lines up with the planets and spheres as arranged on the tree of life. See the hexagram paper from the golden dawn for more details. Btw, it just occured to me that if you learned the LBRH from Kraig then take note that the order of the northern hexagrams are incorrect. He has them opposite. Just be aware it is a misprint.

The unicursal hexagrams were made popular by crowley. Pat Z, mentions it was not invented by crowley but was rather an experimental hexagram form used within the golden dawn. What the actual truth is I have no clue. I use the traditional hexagrams but I do admit the unicursal hex for sol is a lot easier than the traditional one. Once again it is a personal choice and I do not think it really matters which you use as long as you pick one and stick with it.

Posted by: Egle May 30 2007, 04:28 PM

Hi, I have a newbie question about GRP baby.gif How variations of this ritual are to be made? I mean, I know a version when you invoke all the elements, but if you want to invoke just one, do you just proceed with invoking the wanted element, or do you have to banish others first?
Thanks a million.

Posted by: Nero May 31 2007, 11:26 AM

The formula is, banish, invoke, then banish again.
Yes banish all of them.

Posted by: animus Jun 3 2007, 12:03 PM

I have a few simple(?) questions:

When doing the sign of silence, why do you stamp your foot when you go back from the sign of the enterer (As it says in the ritual magick manual from GD)

Also, about drawing a circle, i figure you can either draw one, or not, but what is the differnce in not doing so?
When dealing with elements my guess is that when you draw a line you create a circle and banish/invoke within that line, and when not doing it, you banish/invoke as far as you(r aura?) can reach?
And what is the difference in drawing it when dealing with elementals and with the LBRP as it isnt really a banishing ritual per say?
I guess the circle is also some sort of protection for yourself, but i can't wrap my mind around it at the moment. Would be happy for a reply on this.

Posted by: Nero Jun 4 2007, 10:17 AM

QUOTE(animus @ Jun 3 2007, 02:03 PM) *
I have a few simple(?) questions:

When doing the sign of silence, why do you stamp your foot when you go back from the sign of the enterer (As it says in the ritual magick manual from GD)

That is the way the sign is expressed. In practical terms it acts to ground out the energy rebounding back at you initiated from the attacking sign.

QUOTE(animus @ Jun 3 2007, 02:03 PM) *
Also, about drawing a circle, i figure you can either draw one, or not, but what is the differnce in not doing so?
When dealing with elements my guess is that when you draw a line you create a circle and banish/invoke within that line, and when not doing it, you banish/invoke as far as you(r aura?) can reach?
And what is the difference in drawing it when dealing with elementals and with the LBRP as it isnt really a banishing ritual per say?
I guess the circle is also some sort of protection for yourself, but i can't wrap my mind around it at the moment. Would be happy for a reply on this.

Drawing the circle helps fortify your sphere of sensation. Over time it greatly strengthens it.

Posted by: Mchawi Jun 4 2007, 10:29 AM

What do you think about using diffrent elements at diffrent quaters and what not? Even dieties?

What do you think of these?

NORTH = Midnight - Water - Winter - Seker.
EAST = Sunrise - Air - Spring - Maat.
SOUTH = Noon - Fire - Summer - S.Herukhuti.
WEST = Sunset - Earth - Fall - Sheps.

Posted by: animus Jun 4 2007, 02:36 PM

QUOTE(Nero @ Jun 4 2007, 11:17 AM) *
Drawing the circle helps fortify your sphere of sensation. Over time it greatly strengthens it.


Great answers as always, what does it mean if i don't draw the circle tho? (Or is this one of these skipping around the answers? 13.gif)

Posted by: Nero Jun 5 2007, 10:02 AM

QUOTE(animus @ Jun 4 2007, 04:36 PM) *
Great answers as always, what does it mean if i don't draw the circle tho? (Or is this one of these skipping around the answers? 13.gif)


Why would you not want to? Symbolically not completing the circle leaves gaps and holes in your defenses. As I said earlier the Pentagram ritual is a banishing ritual but goes in a round about way. It produces equilibrium system wide so nothing unbalanced can exist. If a severe imbalance already exists it helps to resolve it in time.

The LBRP can be compared to a magical vitamin. It produces equilibrium which is critical to all work. It strengthens and builds up the sphere of sensation, opens up the astral senses, and cleanses the subtle bodies. A single or sporadic use of it is like a drop in a bucket but performed over time the effect is realized as well as imprinting upon your aura the pentagram and divine names. These are of course only the direct effects, indirectly the performance teaches many critical skills in ritual procedure, energy manipulation, and astral senses.

The ritual has been used for over a hundred years now. It is the first ritual usually learned by a new comer to magick. Most times it is the first one they want to change to "make better" or 'improve" it some how without really ever understanding it or allowing time for the effects to become apparent in the first place. You can find a hundred and one different variations on it but on a long enough time line everyone seems to come back to the original rite, because very simply it works and works well.

Posted by: Mchawi Jun 5 2007, 04:18 PM

QUOTE(Nero @ Jun 5 2007, 11:02 AM) *
The ritual has been used for over a hundred years now. It is the first ritual usually learned by a new comer to magick. Most times it is the first one they want to change to "make better" or 'improve" it some how without really ever understanding it or allowing time for the effects to become apparent in the first place. You can find a hundred and one different variations on it but on a long enough time line everyone seems to come back to the original rite, because very simply it works and works well.


Hmmm... I get ya. Not sure 'bout those either, if I was more daring i'd give it a try for a while but I'm weary in regards to things like this. Works well as it is, its just the placing of the elements seemed to make sence. I mean, why is water opposite air and how does water relate to the sunsetting rather than earth? Its good to question things.

Not sure about others or if its a case of becoming accustomed to the energies involved but I have noticed my success rate seems a bit off. Have to admit I haven't felt the intellectual effect of the MP for a while or aquired the, 'voice' kind of state if u know what I mean. Is that normal? My rituals are good but it seems to have left me feeling lacklustered in regards, if you see my point. Was doing nothing different then I don't think.

Also... Fear. Its only one's self one is afraid of, nothing bad is going to happen, fear in its self is a sence, a warning signal, heightened awareness as fight or flight kicks in but yeesh! How do you overcome fear in a ritual? It dampens the practice as it makes (me personally) tone down the ritual in a animal like flight response... even then the LBRP etc are 'measly' when thinking about some of the other invoking rituals with other dieties involved so its obviously something that needs to be overcome.

.lol. Am now wondering what secrets could be hidden in all this.

Is there a best time to practice understanding planetary hours?

Can't 'things' get under the pents? Shouldn't there be a pent on the floor?

What colour robe is best? .lol.

Is it best to use IAO or Eloah v daath?

How important is a magikal motto?

What have you noticed has changed about yourself in your continued practice of the LBRP and other rituals?

Htp
M

Posted by: animus Jun 6 2007, 02:19 AM

QUOTE(Nero @ Jun 5 2007, 11:02 AM) *
Why would you not want to? Symbolically not completing the circle leaves gaps and holes in your defenses. As I said earlier the Pentagram ritual is a banishing ritual but goes in a round about way. It produces equilibrium system wide so nothing unbalanced can exist. If a severe imbalance already exists it helps to resolve it in time.


I want the circle in the LBRP yes, but what about the elemental pentagram rituals, without the circle, the banish/invoke goes further than if i would have a circle (then it would only go as far as inside the circle, no?

Posted by: Nero Jun 6 2007, 05:53 AM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 5 2007, 06:18 PM) *
Hmmm... I get ya. Not sure 'bout those either, if I was more daring i'd give it a try for a while but I'm weary in regards to things like this. Works well as it is, its just the placing of the elements seemed to make sence. I mean, why is water opposite air and how does water relate to the sunsetting rather than earth? Its good to question things.

Because air is active and water is passive, same as fire is active and earth is passive. Balance. No as I have already explained the elemental placements are aligned with the four winds of the earth and have nothing to do with the sun at all.

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 5 2007, 06:18 PM) *
Not sure about others or if its a case of becoming accustomed to the energies involved but I have noticed my success rate seems a bit off. Have to admit I haven't felt the intellectual effect of the MP for a while or aquired the, 'voice' kind of state if u know what I mean. Is that normal? My rituals are good but it seems to have left me feeling lacklustered in regards, if you see my point. Was doing nothing different then I don't think.

Also... Fear. Its only one's self one is afraid of, nothing bad is going to happen, fear in its self is a sence, a warning signal, heightened awareness as fight or flight kicks in but yeesh! How do you overcome fear in a ritual? It dampens the practice as it makes (me personally) tone down the ritual in a animal like flight response... even then the LBRP etc are 'measly' when thinking about some of the other invoking rituals with other dieties involved so its obviously something that needs to be overcome.

It takes time to become proficient in this and any ritual. You should not be feeling fear from performing the LBRP. Perhaps it is the inner depths welling up or when people first start the LBRP you tend to light up the astral for awhile so you might be drawing astral junk to you.

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 5 2007, 06:18 PM) *
Can't 'things' get under the pents? Shouldn't there be a pent on the floor?

No the circle is infinite.




QUOTE(animus @ Jun 6 2007, 04:19 AM) *
I want the circle in the LBRP yes, but what about the elemental pentagram rituals, without the circle, the banish/invoke goes further than if i would have a circle (then it would only go as far as inside the circle, no?


The circle is infinite. You are projecting the energies to the edge of the universe.

Posted by: Mchawi Jun 6 2007, 06:10 AM

QUOTE
or when people first start the LBRP you tend to light up the astral for awhile so you might be drawing astral junk to you.


Yeah thats it, get an astral twinge and it scares me, as though I'm suddenly not the only one around.

So Air is active, water is passive. How so, what does this mean exactly?

Guess electric blue is the best for cloaks. Knew it. laugh.gif

Is there a best time to practice daily using planetary hours... Or even a specific day of the week?

Posted by: Trinetra Jun 6 2007, 07:58 AM

Hi,
i just wondered wheter one could use the magick wand for the LBRP and GIRP.
thanks

Posted by: Mchawi Jun 6 2007, 08:11 AM

http://home.comcast.net/~max555/tools/dagger1.jpg
^^^

Why is the air dagger used F.Nero?

(will stop bugging you in a bit don't worry)

Posted by: Nero Jun 6 2007, 08:35 AM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 6 2007, 08:10 AM) *
So Air is active, water is passive. How so, what does this mean exactly?

Just like the pillars of the temple. Black and white, active and passive, male and female...

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 6 2007, 08:10 AM) *
Is there a best time to practice daily using planetary hours... Or even a specific day of the week?


I am not sure what you mean. Timing the LBRP to planetary hours? There is no need for that, there is no planetary associations with it.


QUOTE(Trinetra @ Jun 6 2007, 09:58 AM) *
Hi,
i just wondered wheter one could use the magick wand for the LBRP and GIRP.
thanks


Yes, you can use a standard general wand, a outer wand of double power, your finger, or as popularized by Kraig a black handled dagger borrowed from the solomonic tradition.


QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 6 2007, 10:11 AM) *


The air dagger is not used for the LBRP. It can be used for the greater or supreme pentagram ritual of air, and in certain designed rituals requiring the influence of air and what it represents but generally no, the air dagger is too specific a weapon for this.

Posted by: Mchawi Jun 6 2007, 08:58 AM

^ Yeah, thats what I meant, that you don't use the air dagger... the picture was to show what you shouldn't be using. Sure Kraig says to use one though.

Soooo the BRH can be done at a certain time to better its effects? Like on a saturday in the morning.

Digging for gold now.

Posted by: animus Jun 6 2007, 09:04 AM

The circle is infinite. You are projecting the energies to the edge of the universe.


This has got me pondering, thank you again. ac42.gif

Posted by: Nero Jun 6 2007, 11:15 AM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 6 2007, 10:58 AM) *
^ Yeah, thats what I meant, that you don't use the air dagger... the picture was to show what you shouldn't be using. Sure Kraig says to use one though.

Soooo the BRH can be done at a certain time to better its effects? Like on a saturday in the morning.

The black handled dagger and the air dagger are completely different tools for different uses.

The hexagram rituals can be used anytime just for general invocation, working with planetary energies. If you were invoking planetary energies for something specific like to charge a talisman then yes it is better to do it on the correct day and hour of the planet in question.

Posted by: Mchawi Jun 12 2007, 06:54 AM

Ok... sorry if i pissed you off before.

Is it possible to use sigils to do the LBRP? Programming the intent in such a way as to bring about the effect of having done the ritual/s?

Am taking to understanding what you meant by the LBRP being directional but don't really understand. Can you explain the thinking behind it? Have been focusing on charging the pents more so than I did before and would like to understand more of your method of thinking if it dosen't infringe on anything.

Thanks

M

Posted by: Nero Jun 12 2007, 08:30 AM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 12 2007, 08:54 AM) *
Is it possible to use sigils to do the LBRP? Programming the intent in such a way as to bring about the effect of having done the ritual/s?

It is possible to program a mental trigger to bring on the mental state produced by the LBRP, but it would take at least a year or more of practice to instill it. Even then I would believe you would still need a banishing for most ritual work. It is best just to stick to the ritual and learn what it will teach you.
QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 12 2007, 08:54 AM) *
Am taking to understanding what you meant by the LBRP being directional but don't really understand. Can you explain the thinking behind it?

Go back and read what Regardie wrote about the lesser pentagram ritual in his book The Golden Dawn. He is very clear that the elemental directions given in the pentagram ritual are based on the terrestrial four winds. While the elemental placements found in the hexagram ritual are from the zodiac. The rule of thumb is in drawing forces to you use the terrestrial arrangement and when going to the forces use the celestial ones.

Posted by: Mchawi Jun 13 2007, 08:33 AM

Ok...

Just read a topic you replied in... that one where the guy invoked the element of earth and left the gate open over night rather than banishing the element again... can't find the topic but you replied in it... will try and find it again....

Anyway, Is this safe to do if you have family in the house at all? Like the sound of this idea and it seems to have worked, seems to be a good way of getting aquainted with an element.

What do you think?

Posted by: Nero Jun 13 2007, 09:40 AM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 13 2007, 10:33 AM) *
Ok...

Just read a topic you replied in... that one where the guy invoked the element of earth and left the gate open over night rather than banishing the element again... can't find the topic but you replied in it... will try and find it again....

Anyway, Is this safe to do if you have family in the house at all? Like the sound of this idea and it seems to have worked, seems to be a good way of getting aquainted with an element.

What do you think?


No, it is a very good way to get unbalanced. When I was a zelator I was looking for ways to speed up the process and also to cut down my ritual time. It occurred to me that if I did not banish after I invoked earth then the energy would stay with me and aid in my evolution. Repeated use of this resulted in a bad imbalance that took me some time to correct before I could progress and actually ended up costing me time as I had to spend longer than I had planned in the grade. Later I attempted to skip the initial banishing and only invoke the element in an effort to save time. It was apparent in a very short period of time that this was not efficient as the energy invoked just didn't feel pure, it was mixed and not pure elemental earth. It was a hard lesson but a good one to learn.

Always open and close your workings with a banishing. The post you referring to the magician left it open for a very specific purpose of attempting to contact Auriel. It is not a method I would advise but he managed to gather some results from it, but definitely not something you would want to do often.

Posted by: Gregathol Jun 14 2007, 06:45 PM

I have a small question about the LBRP. Is it wise for a beginner to perform both invoking and banishing, or should he initially use only the banishing pentagrams?

Posted by: Nero Jun 15 2007, 07:39 AM

QUOTE(Gregathol @ Jun 14 2007, 08:45 PM) *
I have a small question about the LBRP. Is it wise for a beginner to perform both invoking and banishing, or should he initially use only the banishing pentagrams?


Good question. The original teachings of the Golden Dawn was LIRP in the morning and LBRP at night. Generally most orders now teach to become efficient at the LBRP first then start using the LIRP. I happen to agree. My personal advice is this: Perform the LBRP twice a day every day for a full month. The teachings say it takes about twice a day routine of a full luner cycle before you begin to notice the results of the ritual. After that switch to a invoking in the morning and banishing at night schedule.

Posted by: bumdhar Jun 15 2007, 06:45 PM

This is great stuff above!

So the sign of silence....Would it be advisable to use it all the time in the LBRP? I've seen it done both ways, though I usually do it without, (per Kraig MM where I learned it at 16)

I did the LBRP everyday for a year (per Regardie) and it was a totally unproductive year in terms of my creative interests. I wonder if it's because I don't use the sign of silence to seal each pentagram? Or maybe because my creative powers were going into visualizing?

Or maybe it had nothing to do with the Ritual at all.

Posted by: Mchawi Jun 19 2007, 01:29 PM

Hi again.

Have been thinking about those directions.

North = Earth, West = Water.

In looking for a Qi-Gong class I've found that they use the same directions. Is it viable to do a swap and follow this system instead? Or would it mess up later work? Just dosent bode well to be doing Q-gong and relating the directions as such.

Thanks for the book reccomendations as well, just ordered them and a few on astrology.

Posted by: altpath Jul 16 2007, 10:44 PM

QUOTE(Nero @ May 14 2007, 08:34 AM) *
The pentagrams are seen as blue or white. There is no real significance here as that is just how they appear when viewed on the astral plane.


This may just be my opinion, but it seems to me that the color of the pents and the ring that binds them is important.

If you look at the QC, by invoking geburah and gedulah, it makes sense that the LBRP would use these forces to form the pents (in blue for chesed) and geburah to form the circle (forming a ring of red fire). I'm going by one way of practicing this ritual that I read about a while back. It makes more sense, doesn't it? There is so many different variations of this ritual, that it seems to me this is the most correct, kabbalistically speaking.

One thing that bothers me is that no matter where I look, there are different variations of the BRH. There is no clear method given anywhere for properly performing the BRH, or the invoking version. What is the original BRH banishing, saturn??? I can understand why it would be necessary to banish saturn if it's associated with bad luck.

Posted by: Into_Dust Aug 9 2007, 10:16 AM

Hi... I also have a question about the LBRP.
I'm new to CM and have read quite a lot of instructions for this ritual but non of them said what to do when the ritual is over.
What should I do after the second QC?
Just end it and go back to my normal day or should I say "good-bye" to the angels? Open the circle?

Sorry if this question seems a bit weird but I'm really new to CM and English is not my native tongue so it's hard for me to explain what I mean.

greets
I_D

Posted by: Nero Aug 13 2007, 06:57 AM

QUOTE(Into_Dust @ Aug 9 2007, 12:16 PM) *
Hi... I also have a question about the LBRP.
I'm new to CM and have read quite a lot of instructions for this ritual but non of them said what to do when the ritual is over.
What should I do after the second QC?
Just end it and go back to my normal day or should I say "good-bye" to the angels? Open the circle?

Sorry if this question seems a bit weird but I'm really new to CM and English is not my native tongue so it's hard for me to explain what I mean.

greets
I_D


Nothing, the rite is ended. If you are using it as a opener then move on to the next working step. Otherwise you have performed your banishing.

Posted by: Mchawi Sep 29 2007, 10:57 AM

Have to admit I like closing my rituals, kinda miss the astral tinged air my room would get at times but I get less 'disturbances' after a good license to depart. mf_popeanim.gif

First off, apologies to sir Nero, I have since re-evaluated my practice and understand what you meant by it being directional doh.gif Am now doing the IRP and the IRH when I can. Still elemental as I use the Egyptian version of the ritual but anyway...

Am looking to attempt the supreme version of the rituals but why do the lesser if you can do the supreme version in the first place? Seems pointless... can one swap the usage employ the SIRP in place of the lesser or am I missing an essential and obvious point here? Kraig has it that the practitioner should move straight on to the SIRP after the Hexagram ritual, think it was you that advised against that and after doing the IRH a few times I see why .lol.

Peace
M

Posted by: ComaOfLoss Oct 31 2007, 04:11 AM

QUOTE(Nero @ May 29 2007, 03:33 PM) *
The unicursal hexagrams were made popular by crowley. Pat Z, mentions it was not invented by crowley but was rather an experimental hexagram form used within the golden dawn. What the actual truth is I have no clue. I use the traditional hexagrams but I do admit the unicursal hex for sol is a lot easier than the traditional one. Once again it is a personal choice and I do not think it really matters which you use as long as you pick one and stick with it.


I think they're originally from India. (Or Nepal or Tibet). Here's one in Muktinath, Nepal:

IPB Image

Posted by: wizardgryphon Oct 31 2007, 10:25 AM

so the true ancestry of the hexagran is asian?????? shok.gif hmm.gif confused012.gif

Posted by: ComaOfLoss Oct 31 2007, 02:05 PM

QUOTE(wizardgryphon @ Oct 31 2007, 06:25 PM) *
so the true ancestry of the hexagran is asian?????? shok.gif hmm.gif confused012.gif


Well, if you ever go to India or Nepal you'll see hexagrams and swastikas eveywhere. As I've
understood (feel free to correct me) the hexagram is a sort of a jing/jang symbol. The upwards triangle
represents the male (fire) and the downward triangle female (water).

The swastika on the other hand propably represents the cycle of life/rebirth.

IPB Image
Not really anything to do with the nazis there.

IPB Image
Temple of Durga, Varanasi India.

IPB Image
Swastika and the Star of David side by side in Kathmandu.

IPB Image
House of the Kumari, Kathmandu.

Posted by: wizardgryphon Oct 31 2007, 02:16 PM

QUOTE(ComaOfLoss @ Oct 31 2007, 04:05 PM) *
Well, if you ever go to India or Nepal you'll see hexagrams and swastikas eveywhere. As I've
understood (feel free to correct me) the hexagram is a sort of a jing/jang symbol. The upwards triangle
represents the male (fire) and the downward triangle female (water).

The swastika on the other hand propably represents the cycle of life/rebirth.

that does make sence

Posted by: palindroem Oct 31 2007, 04:10 PM

Be careful to not get lost in the study of the symbols "origins".
These are essential universal in design and can be found from Nordic carvings to African tribal designs even native American woven art.
Its easy to forget thier importance as communicators of structure and intention for you, to the anthropologicals of origins with
other people and probably for somewhat different cultural psyches and needs.

Posted by: Mchawi Nov 13 2007, 07:17 AM

Bit of a stupid question...

Is it ok to do the sign of silence after drawing and charging each pent/hex?

Have been doing it for a while, kind of seals me in.but I don't want to be making one of those personalized adaptation mistakes.

Also, how do I associate with each of the Archs/Dieties? Am now pretty good at both the LBRP and BRH rituals but would like to communicate with each of them before I move on and start that book you recommended.

Have been using the Egyptian version up until now but might swap back to using Hebrew to continue with the work.

Peace
M

Posted by: Nero Nov 13 2007, 08:05 AM

If you are using the sign of the enterer, which you should for the Lesser pentagram ritual, then it should always be answered with the sign of silence. The greater and supreme version is generally charged by stabbing it with the wand or fingers and charged from tiphareth. Then after the charging the elemental sign is used. These are not two part signs and the sign of silence is not needed. Although you can use the sign of the enterer and the sign of silence for all the pentagram rituals if you wish.

Daily use of the pentagram rituals will already build a familiarity with the archangels. If you wish to do more you can pick one of them and meditate on him and his qualities after the ritual. After some time pick a new one until you have all four.

Posted by: Mchawi Nov 13 2007, 11:10 AM

QUOTE(Nero @ Nov 13 2007, 09:05 AM) *
If you are using the sign of the enterer, which you should for the Lesser pentagram ritual, then it should always be answered with the sign of silence. The greater and supreme version is generally charged by stabbing it with the wand or fingers and charged from tiphareth. Then after the charging the elemental sign is used. These are not two part signs and the sign of silence is not needed. Although you can use the sign of the enterer and the sign of silence for all the pentagram rituals if you wish.

Daily use of the pentagram rituals will already build a familiarity with the archangels. If you wish to do more you can pick one of them and meditate on him and his qualities after the ritual. After some time pick a new one until you have all four.


Ok...

Have, 'bumped into' the angels a few times in ritual but could or should I invoke them or something? Am a bit of a perfectionist, want to see them in all their glory before I move on to rituals proper.

Bit off topic but do you have the I Ching on the tree of life? Need it for my book of trees, got 777 but it dosen't state where each hexagram is and the Thelmic Tree with the I ching I've seen is diffrent to the one Crowley gives.

Will ask in the beginners forum.

Thanks

Posted by: AmethistA Dec 14 2007, 10:14 AM

Just out of curiosity, i am not really confortable using the jewish legacy part of the LBRP. Do you believe it would be less functional, and would bear less results, to change the four divine names with other deities? And the Archangels with something else?

How much of the power of the ritual is depending on the paradigm and the jewish correspondences?

Thank you.

Posted by: Nero Dec 14 2007, 10:24 AM

QUOTE(AmethistA @ Dec 14 2007, 11:14 AM) *
Just out of curiosity, i am not really confortable using the jewish legacy part of the LBRP. Do you believe it would be less functional, and would bear less results, to change the four divine names with other deities? And the Archangels with something else?

How much of the power of the ritual is depending on the paradigm and the jewish correspondences?

Thank you.


Some people are just not comfortable with Jewish and Christian references. Obviously the Golden Dawn system is built heavily on them, but if you feel you need to change them to better match your view of the divine then that is fine and encouraged. The newer copies of Regardie's Middle Pillar book actually have several versions of the LBRP using Celtic, Pagan, Egyptian, etc language and symbols.

Posted by: AmethistA Dec 14 2007, 11:17 AM

QUOTE(Nero @ Dec 14 2007, 05:24 PM) *
Some people are just not comfortable with Jewish and Christian references. Obviously the Golden Dawn system is built heavily on them, but if you feel you need to change them to better match your view of the divine then that is fine and encouraged. The newer copies of Regardie's Middle Pillar book actually have several versions of the LBRP using Celtic, Pagan, Egyptian, etc language and symbols.


Thank you. I believe i will practice the nomal version daily for about a month, and then build my own one.

Currently i am working with Liber XXV, the star ruby, daily. What do you think of this ritual?

Posted by: Nero Dec 14 2007, 11:31 AM

QUOTE(AmethistA @ Dec 14 2007, 12:17 PM) *
Thank you. I believe i will practice the nomal version daily for about a month, and then build my own one.

Currently i am working with Liber XXV, the star ruby, daily. What do you think of this ritual?


The star ruby is a very good ritual but in appearance it is the same as the LBRP but it is in fact very different. The LBRP is a passive banishing. It is very much centered in malkuth and is greatly concerned with establishing equilibrium. Within that equilibrium nothing unbalanced can exist. Which makes it a great deal suited to more things than just banishing. It is a spiritual vitamin, taken daily builds up the sphere of sensation and purges the mind and lower self.

The star ruby on the other hand is very active. Centered in Geburah, it banishes with fire and force. Also with the NOX signs it pushes the magician in essence through the abyss to rest in Binah and saturn. So it has additional qualities beyond just a simple banishing as well. Tends to tilt the magician towards higher levels of energy and existence.

As you can see both rituals have a place in a magicians tool box. I suggest working with the LBRP first to build up the systems and establish that oh so important equilibrium which is the basis of the work. Then try a hand at the star ruby for awhile. Once you have experience with both you should get a feel for when one is needed over the other depending on what you are doing and working on at the time.

Posted by: AmethistA Dec 14 2007, 11:46 AM

QUOTE(Nero @ Dec 14 2007, 06:31 PM) *
The star ruby is a very good ritual but in appearance it is the same as the LBRP but it is in fact very different. The LBRP is a passive banishing. It is very much centered in malkuth and is greatly concerned with establishing equilibrium. Within that equilibrium nothing unbalanced can exist. Which makes it a great deal suited to more things than just banishing. It is a spiritual vitamin, taken daily builds up the sphere of sensation and purges the mind and lower self.

The star ruby on the other hand is very active. Centered in Geburah, it banishes with fire and force. Also with the NOX signs it pushes the magician in essence through the abyss to rest in Binah and saturn. So it has additional qualities beyond just a simple banishing as well. Tends to tilt the magician towards higher levels of energy and existence.

As you can see both rituals have a place in a magicians tool box. I suggest working with the LBRP first to build up the systems and establish that oh so important equilibrium which is the basis of the work. Then try a hand at the star ruby for awhile. Once you have experience with both you should get a feel for when one is needed over the other depending on what you are doing and working on at the time.


Thank you for your answer. Yes, this is not the first time i encounter the idea that liber XXV simbolically puts the magickian close to the Abyss, as a consequence of the N.O.X. signs. By the way, which sequence of signs do you use? I find myself well with the "Vir/Puella/Mulier/Puer" combination, it being in harmony and specular with the forces invoked at the quarters, but i know that the specific order of the figures varies from magician to magician.

Plus, something i have always asked myself: the LBRP hah been in more modern times taught together with a specific visualization pattern (like the one in Kraig's MM).

What kind of visualization would you find useful for the star ruby?

Posted by: Nero Dec 14 2007, 12:29 PM

QUOTE(AmethistA @ Dec 14 2007, 12:46 PM) *
Thank you for your answer. Yes, this is not the first time i encounter the idea that liber XXV simbolically puts the magickian close to the Abyss, as a consequence of the N.O.X. signs. By the way, which sequence of signs do you use? I find myself well with the "Vir/Puella/Mulier/Puer" combination, it being in harmony and specular with the forces invoked at the quarters, but i know that the specific order of the figures varies from magician to magician.

Plus, something i have always asked myself: the LBRP hah been in more modern times taught together with a specific visualization pattern (like the one in Kraig's MM).

What kind of visualization would you find useful for the star ruby?


As I said the star ruby is centered in geburah and moves up through the abyss. The correct order of the N.O.X. signs is as follows:
Puer grade sign for geburah, N
Vir grade sign for chesed, O
Puella gate to the abyss
Mulier across to the other side of the abyss, X
Isis Rejoicing, grade sign for Binah

As for the visualizations it is hard to say as crowley never gave any, as well as they are a personal choice I believe.

But studying them it seems to indicate that
JUNGES is like Chokmah or Sulphur, a primal, swirling power. The first spark.
SYNOCHES is like Binah or Mercury, the first spark of the Junges flows into the Synoches who are being instilled with strength and power.
TELETARCAI is like da'ath or the middle pillar, the Synoches give birth to the Teletarcai as the result of the insemination of Sunoches by Junges, also is the Agent of Initiation.
The DAEMONS are readly seen from greek sources, act as the bridge between man and the gods, or our link to the supernarals.

The interesting thing is if you follow the placement of the guardians in a invoking clockwise rotation about the circle, it indicates supernarals down to us as we are going up to the supernarals via the NOX signs. We are moving toward one another.

Review all the tid bits you can about them, meditate upon them, and try and build up your own images and feelings for them. Time will be your teacher as you work with the ritual.

Posted by: AmethistA Dec 15 2007, 03:38 AM

QUOTE(Nero @ Dec 14 2007, 07:29 PM) *
As I said the star ruby is centered in geburah and moves up through the abyss. The correct order of the N.O.X. signs is as follows:
Puer grade sign for geburah, N
Vir grade sign for chesed, O
Puella gate to the abyss
Mulier across to the other side of the abyss, X
Isis Rejoicing, grade sign for Binah

As for the visualizations it is hard to say as crowley never gave any, as well as they are a personal choice I believe.

But studying them it seems to indicate that
JUNGES is like Chokmah or Sulphur, a primal, swirling power. The first spark.
SYNOCHES is like Binah or Mercury, the first spark of the Junges flows into the Synoches who are being instilled with strength and power.
TELETARCAI is like da'ath or the middle pillar, the Synoches give birth to the Teletarcai as the result of the insemination of Sunoches by Junges, also is the Agent of Initiation.
The DAEMONS are readly seen from greek sources, act as the bridge between man and the gods, or our link to the supernarals.

The interesting thing is if you follow the placement of the guardians in a invoking clockwise rotation about the circle, it indicates supernarals down to us as we are going up to the supernarals via the NOX signs. We are moving toward one another.

Review all the tid bits you can about them, meditate upon them, and try and build up your own images and feelings for them. Time will be your teacher as you work with the ritual.



Well, actually there exist no correct order for the N.O.X. signs in the Star Ruby; Different sources will provide you with different orders: Duquette instructs in doing "puella, puer, vir, mulier" if my memory is correct; The official version, as taught by the caliphate OTO, instead, follows the order of the invokations, so that the signs given during the Paian correspond to the earlier part of the ritual (So, invoking THERION in the east, and therion being VIR, in the east i make the sign of VIR, and so on.)

Insted, i have not yet studied the Chaldean oracles and their relations with crowley's liber XXV, but your suggestion will be definitely an excellent starting point to do this.

Posted by: AmethistA Dec 19 2007, 04:16 PM

As i said i am continuing practicing liber XXV daily. My main problem is visualization: i am still not able to visualize clearly a pentagram; Even if i try hard, with my eyes closed, i just see the part of it on which i'm focusing, and when i try to see it as a whole i lose it. Out of curiosity, how long does it take before you start visualizing correctly and clearly?

Posted by: Fio Praeter Humanus Dec 20 2007, 07:28 AM

QUOTE(AmethistA @ Dec 19 2007, 05:16 PM) *
As i said i am continuing practicing liber XXV daily. My main problem is visualization: i am still not able to visualize clearly a pentagram; Even if i try hard, with my eyes closed, i just see the part of it on which i'm focusing, and when i try to see it as a whole i lose it. Out of curiosity, how long does it take before you start visualizing correctly and clearly?


I assume you mean the visualized pents and not the actual astral pents you are creating. In either case it depends on the person. Dedicated work and it can easily be accomplished in a few weeks to a couple of months.

One trick to help with the visualization is to draw a perfect pent on paper using a ruler and compass. Blue for the LBRP and Red for the Star Ruby. Then just stare at it, burn the image into your brain. Perhaps meditate upon the image for a short time before your performance of the ritual. You can set up the paper in front of you and stare at it while breathing, after a few minutes close your eyes and try to maintain the image. Then later for the star ruby, sit and practice imagining the pent upon the forehead instead of just in front of you.

Posted by: Daathvader Dec 20 2007, 10:48 AM

I have a question that I don't think I saw yet. It's about the actual drawing of the pentagrams.

One thing that seems universal in all versions of the LBRP that I've seen is an emphasis on the pentagrams being as geometrically perfect as possible. I'm pretty sure I understand why and I'll lay my understanding out here:

The pentagram represents a perfect balance between the elements of earth, air, fire, water and spirit. When expressed in a more or less concrete form (be it physical or astral), the perfection of that balance is expressed in the pentagram's geometry--the angles being equal to each other, the length of each line being equal to the others, etc. If an angle is too obtuse or a line is too long, that represents an imbalance, the resulting pentagram is skewed and it no longer embodies a perfect balance.

In principle that's all well and good--and I'm sure that even if your pentagrams are pretty lopsided, provided you've done your best to draw them carefully, you've also succeeded in pouring a good amount of intent into them, and I'm sure that fact was considered in devising the ritual as well.

Still, I have to ask how important it is in the LBRP to draw exact pentagrams, in relation to the importance of other aspects such as vibrating the names, visualizing, etc.? See, one of my problems is in drawing the horizontal line a little bit too high and ending up with a relatively tiny Spirit point. When I draw the pentagrams imperfectly, I also have trouble visualizing them perfectly.

I want to know how much energy I should be putting into perfecting my pentagram's shape as opposed to other things.

Posted by: Fio Praeter Humanus Dec 20 2007, 12:23 PM

QUOTE(Daathvader @ Dec 20 2007, 11:48 AM) *
Still, I have to ask how important it is in the LBRP to draw exact pentagrams, in relation to the importance of other aspects such as vibrating the names, visualizing, etc.? See, one of my problems is in drawing the horizontal line a little bit too high and ending up with a relatively tiny Spirit point. When I draw the pentagrams imperfectly, I also have trouble visualizing them perfectly.

I want to know how much energy I should be putting into perfecting my pentagram's shape as opposed to other things.


It's important, for the reasons you said and others. There is a chapter in Regardie's Middle Pillar book and the geometry of the pentagram and how the proportions relate to other qabalaic symbolism. Also reference Levi's writings about how the pentagram strikes terror in the lesser spirits as it represents spirits domination over the elements. Besides you want it correct for the same reason a soldier shines his shoes and presses his shirt, no reason to be sloppy in one's work as it leads to sloppiness in other others.

Generally my advice is to break the LBRP into parts and only concentrate on that one part until it is mastered then add it in while you focus on the next one until the ritual is perfected. So,
step 1. memorization of the ritual
step 2. work on the movements, the step work and drawing the pents
step 3. work on the visualizations
step 4. vibrations of the names and feeling the energy

A few tricks for drawing the pents. Use your body. Start off from the left hip, up to just above the head, down to the right hip, left shoulder, right shoulder, then back down to the left hip. Rather than watching the finger or wand, keep your eyes focused on the point you are moving toward. It seems to help keep the arm steady. Just keep working on it, it becomes second nature after awhile.

Posted by: Squishy Dec 21 2007, 12:07 PM

For the past little while, I've been doing an in-depth study of the LBRP. So far I'm doing fine, but I've come up to the evocation, and I keep finding something I can't reconcile.

I understand the ritual is not elemental based, I really do, however during the evocation that's the only way I can justify Uriel at the Left Hand. I know enough about the ritual to realize that the operator is at the intersection of Pe and Samekh, and the evocation makes since until the last part- Raphael in Tiphareth before you, Gabriel in Yesod behind you, Michael in Hod at your right, but then at your left is Uriel. Am I missing something about Netzach, everything I've ever read has Haniel as the archangel in Netzach?

The only justification I've found is that Uriel rules the Northern Quadrangle, but at that point it seems more appropriate to use Haniel- the ritual seems more sephirotic than elemental, to me at least.

What am I missing?

Posted by: Fio Praeter Humanus Dec 21 2007, 12:44 PM

QUOTE(Squishy @ Dec 21 2007, 01:07 PM) *
For the past little while, I've been doing an in-depth study of the LBRP. So far I'm doing fine, but I've come up to the evocation, and I keep finding something I can't reconcile.

I understand the ritual is not elemental based, I really do, however during the evocation that's the only way I can justify Uriel at the Left Hand. I know enough about the ritual to realize that the operator is at the intersection of Pe and Samekh, and the evocation makes since until the last part- Raphael in Tiphareth before you, Gabriel in Yesod behind you, Michael in Hod at your right, but then at your left is Uriel. Am I missing something about Netzach, everything I've ever read has Haniel as the archangel in Netzach?

The only justification I've found is that Uriel rules the Northern Quadrangle, but at that point it seems more appropriate to use Haniel- the ritual seems more sephirotic than elemental, to me at least.

What am I missing?


The idea that the ritual puts you at Pe and Samekh was Crowley's concept and not one I agree with. As I said before the ritual takes place wholly within Malkuth. Malkuth is sub divided up into four quarters, hence the color scheme for that sphere. The four archangels called to guard the circle are the four guardians of Malkuth, which is where we live and work.

Posted by: kairos Jan 10 2008, 01:13 AM

Though not the LBRP, in regarding the GIRH, in "Magick" Crowley mentions using the Formula of Ararita before the God-name of the planet. Two questions: first; would one simply do the LIRH first with the elemental hexagrams and Ararita and then do the earth hexagrams with the divine name for the planet and close with the INRI, IAO, LVX, etc. or merely say Ararita before the god-name using just the GIRH. Second, when invoking deities, should one merely use the Hebrew divine name or the actual name of the God. For example, you give the hexagram of Luna in an effort to invoke Artemis. Would you say Shaddai El Chai (or possibly ALIM,) or Artemis. Hope these questions are enough on topic.

Posted by: Fio Praeter Humanus Jan 14 2008, 08:09 AM

I am a little confused by your question. You want to know how to invoke Artemis? There are a number of ways but the way I would do it is thus:

LBRP (optional)
LBRH
Purify and consecrate the temple
LIRH of Luna
GIRH of Luna
Invocation of Luna
Invocation of Artemis
Purify and consecrate the temple
License to depart
GBRH of Luna
LBRH of Luna
LBRH
LBRP (optional)

Posted by: Mchawi Jan 28 2008, 08:03 AM

Hello again Ftr Nero;

Going through 'Kabbalah Magic' Lyam gives the practice recommended for each grade but I am in crisis as he says to follow his course and his course only which is fine but he says to do rituals once daily when the majority of practitioners, myself included, are used to a twice daily practice as recommended by Regardie and others... Do I stick to it and practice once daily giving up on the nightly rituals or continue invoking in the morning and banishing in the evening? It would lessen the effect of the element in each grade I guess so would it then make sense to go through his course and double up..? Practice both in the morning and evening even though only once is reccomended?

Posted by: Mchawi Mar 7 2008, 11:17 AM

Right, I've got myself in a bit of a rut and have taken on a technique that the golden dawn manual advises against doing. Think Kraig got me into it to start off with, not sure. Up until now I have been bringing in the elements to oust them as you would a God name drawing it into myself and using the projection technique to direct it toward its relevant quarter and pentagram.... it works perfectly but it is advised against in the G.D manual, I'm assuming its because it may corrupt the energies invoked within oneself but as it works well I don't understand how it could be a problem, am now proficient in regards to the LBRP and BRH am getting a 90% success rate (approx) just concerned about this technique... especially as I use the egyptian version of the lbrp as outlined in I.R's Middle Pillar which puts focus on the elements rather than god names... tried to go back to using the hebrew version but couldn't make it work, too late to be messing around with something I've become accustomed to I guess....

Any advice?

Posted by: Mchawi Apr 22 2008, 05:18 AM

Ok, finally started in 1=10 grade yesterday. Have a few questions about L.T Christophers approach to the ritual without being overly inquisitive and bugging you, nothing major I guess.

Notice that L.T.C lays out the ritual going from South - West - East - North but still talks about 'a circle', its left me wondering whether the Pentagrams should be connected somehow as the connecting line would need to be drawn past the North to the east and round again. Considered dissecting the ritual to make it a complete circle but can see that approaching the north in such a way is beneficial.

Also, does a person use the projection and sign of silence when in earth grade or are these 0=0 signs to be replaced by the 1=10 sign... to give the sign of silence, to disassociate ones energy from a sign/act while invoking seems a bit odd.

No more questions after this, tend to take my work seriously, like having everything nailed down, stable for easy traversing as it were. Am a capricorn, no time for unstable footing. .lol. Your ritual seems to fit in well with the work, wasn't sure where to put it at first but it fits well directly after the invocations facing North, slight problem having to follow it up with the M.P perhaps, would be good to go straight into the tree of life meditation work, might take to doing it after the M.P rather than before.

Thanks.
M

Posted by: Fio Praeter Humanus Apr 22 2008, 01:24 PM

You always complete the circle leaving no breaks in it. I have no idea why he lays out the ritual the way he does, but in the golden dawn tradition and all that follow it you always begin and end in the east moving clockwise.


QUOTE(Mchawi @ Apr 22 2008, 07:18 AM) *
Also, does a person use the projection and sign of silence when in earth grade or are these 0=0 signs to be replaced by the 1=10 sign... to give the sign of silence, to disassociate ones energy from a sign/act while invoking seems a bit odd.


It depends on what school of thought you are from or are taught from. The manner I favor is stabbing the pentagram charging it from tiphareth, then giving the grade sign. The signs are the mundras of the west and affect the subtle bodies when used.

The comment about the sign of silence shows a complete lack of knowledge on the neophyte signs. It is a two part sign and are always used together. The projecting sign literally project the invoked force to the ends of the universe. To perform it correctly it really needs to be done using the vibratory formula of the Middle Pillar. The sign of silence is the passive aspect of the projection sign. Once you have projected the force to the ends of your strength you fall back into the sign of silence as the projected force comes rebounding back from the edge of the universe to you. Using the sign allows the force to safely wash over you and imprint upon your sphere of sensation.

Posted by: Mchawi Apr 23 2008, 05:05 AM

QUOTE(Fio Praeter Humanus @ Apr 22 2008, 02:24 PM) *
You always complete the circle leaving no breaks in it. I have no idea why he lays out the ritual the way he does, but in the golden dawn tradition and all that follow it you always begin and end in the east moving clockwise.


It does seem a bit odd, don't think its a type error but in the prayer says, ''Thou art the rumbling of the midnight depths, the hurtling granules of action'' The prayer to the North, ''Thou art the foothold and the foundation, the anchor of the soul and the matrix of the wise. Amen'' appropriate for the North perhaps but I have to admit I'm not fond of the flow, from East to North and back to east again. The self initiation into the G.D book goes from East and round as normal in a way that is preferable.... did think it was specific, for the invocation of earth, but the same is to be done in the other grades as well, round to the east, back round to the North then facing east again.

QUOTE
It depends on what school of thought you are from or are taught from. The manner I favor is stabbing the pentagram charging it from tiphareth, then giving the grade sign. The signs are the mundras of the west and affect the subtle bodies when used.

The comment about the sign of silence shows a complete lack of knowledge on the neophyte signs. It is a two part sign and are always used together. The projecting sign literally project the invoked force to the ends of the universe. To perform it correctly it really needs to be done using the vibratory formula of the Middle Pillar. The sign of silence is the passive aspect of the projection sign. Once you have projected the force to the ends of your strength you fall back into the sign of silence as the projected force comes rebounding back from the edge of the universe to you. Using the sign allows the force to safely wash over you and imprint upon your sphere of sensation.


.lol. Know what I'm doing, kind of, got my wires crossed as I took to using the Egyptian version of the LBRP outlined in Regardies book using elemental names rather than God ones... I draw in the elements and project them from myself out through the pentagrams into the depths of the universe and close with the sign of silence preventing their return as you stated but I shouldn't be drawing in the elements, the technique is only for God names.... In invoking I do the same but as its invoking I considered that I want it to bounce back, like sending out a request or call if you will, thought perhaps I wanted to keep that connection with the signs until I banish them. As I'm using L.T Christophers text this isn't so much of a problem as he uses the last syllable charging approach but does as you do, stabs rather than projects to charge.

Posted by: Mchawi Apr 24 2008, 11:47 AM

Don't understand why L.T.C invokes in such a fashion, thought/think it may have to do with the temple space although that would differ for each grade, just can't see its function. All of the other texts state clearly that invoking is done from East round clockwise and back again. He also implies that one should do the same in the banishing of the element although that is supposed to be done anti clockwise.

Did the invoking as normal last night to better gauge on the difference in flow, the attunment ritual fits perfectly that way but as the invoking style is given for each grade I'm going to have to do it the way it is given. Surprised I didn't notice the diffrence beforehand, just took it for being the LiRP as normal.

Hope to write him and ask about it.

Peace
M

Posted by: Gesigewigus May 29 2008, 01:06 PM

Why in the LBRP do we place Geburah on our right, and Gedulah on our left?

On the Tree, Geburah is on the left, and Gedulah/Chesed on the right, so why do we reverse them inside of ourselves?

Posted by: Fio Praeter Humanus May 29 2008, 02:20 PM

QUOTE(Gesigewigus @ May 29 2008, 03:06 PM) *
Why in the LBRP do we place Geburah on our right, and Gedulah on our left?

On the Tree, Geburah is on the left, and Gedulah/Chesed on the right, so why do we reverse them inside of ourselves?


When you face the tree of life, the black pillar is on the left and the white pillar is on the right. But during the QC, MP, and other rites you are associating yourself with Adam Kadmon, archetypical man. So you are actually standing between the pillars, with the black pillar on your right and the white on your left.

Imagine the pillars before you, then turn around and step back into them.

Now this gets complicated when you project your sphere of sensation into a sphere, where you actually have two sets of pillars before and behind you, but that is a completely different issue.

Posted by: Gesigewigus Jun 1 2008, 09:32 PM

QUOTE(Fio Praeter Humanus @ May 29 2008, 04:20 PM) *
you are associating yourself with Adam Kadmon, archetypical man. So you are actually standing between the pillars, with the black pillar on your right and the white on your left.



Okay, and other than superimposing the figure over the tree is there a reason? Like why is it that he is seen that way, not the other way?

Another question, is what is the difference between the LBRP and the LIRP? I know the difference in how they are performed, but I can't recall anything that really said why or when you should do one over the other.

Just thinking over them both, they seem to do the same thing superficially at least, just through different means.

Posted by: Gesigewigus Jun 19 2008, 09:43 PM

Another question.

I've read that the Sign of Silence can be done with different fingers for different elements, and the pointer finger, most commonly used in the LBRP, is the Sign of Silence for Water. Why is Water used rather than Spirit (the Thumb) or anything else?

Posted by: Mchawi Jun 20 2008, 11:39 AM

QUOTE(Gesigewigus @ Jun 1 2008, 10:32 PM) *
Okay, and other than superimposing the figure over the tree is there a reason? Like why is it that he is seen that way, not the other way?

Another question, is what is the difference between the LBRP and the LIRP? I know the difference in how they are performed, but I can't recall anything that really said why or when you should do one over the other.

Just thinking over them both, they seem to do the same thing superficially at least, just through different means.


LBRP = Lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram.

Used for banishing any of the 4 elements either specifically or all at once via earth.

LiRP = Lesser invoking ritual of the pentagram.

Used for invoking a specific element.

You banish with earth prior to any ritual then invoke the element you want to work with and then banish it again.

Banish - Invoke - Banish.

face08.gif

Posted by: azareth Jun 30 2008, 08:45 AM

Ok,
what are the visualizations that go with every part of the LBRP GBRP , for example when vibrating sacred names,you visualize Light coming out of your mouth and then inhale it and then exhale it back to enforce the pentagram. or during the Q.C you visualize your feet on earth while your head in space to unite the Microcosm with the macrocosm..
can you please elaborate..?

Posted by: Gesigewigus Jul 1 2008, 09:00 PM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 20 2008, 01:39 PM) *
LBRP = Lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram.

Used for banishing any of the 4 elements either specifically or all at once via earth.

LiRP = Lesser invoking ritual of the pentagram.

Used for invoking a specific element.

You banish with earth prior to any ritual then invoke the element you want to work with and then banish it again.

Banish - Invoke - Banish.

face08.gif


That doesn't match with what Fio Praeter Humanus had said. That's the old assumptions I worked from, but if FPH is right, I'd think there is something different going on. I mean, you aren't Banishing Earth, you're Banishing Assiyah, to Create a balanced "zone" for your magick, but in the end this "banishing" ritual, invokes, the Archangels, and the Worlds they rule to make this zone. So if it's making this realm of potential for your magick, what is the point of the Invoking, or is it just "tweak" the balance towards the realm/element you may want for a specific working.

Posted by: Velarius Jul 3 2008, 07:51 AM

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this.

I just wanted to post some results that i have had when practicing these rituals ... especially the LBRP. I just think that the effects are amazing, in that amount of energy that is created, the negative energies that are banished, and the great balancing and energizing effect that its use has had so far on me. I'm excited to keep moving in my practice. i_triangle.gif

Posted by: Petrus Oct 13 2008, 12:45 PM

Something interesting that I've noticed...I've been playing World of Warcraft for over two years now, and although my interest has waned, for some reason I just kept playing it.

I began doing the LBRP regularly probably two weeks or so ago now, and in that time, I've logged into WoW maybe four times. I'm finding that the more ritual work I do, the less I actually want to play the game. I've also started doing a few other things as well, on and off. I'm wondering what that means, if anything.

Posted by: Velarius Nov 11 2008, 09:21 PM

QUOTE(Petrus @ Oct 13 2008, 01:45 PM) *

Something interesting that I've noticed...I've been playing World of Warcraft for over two years now, and although my interest has waned, for some reason I just kept playing it.

I began doing the LBRP regularly probably two weeks or so ago now, and in that time, I've logged into WoW maybe four times. I'm finding that the more ritual work I do, the less I actually want to play the game. I've also started doing a few other things as well, on and off. I'm wondering what that means, if anything.


Perhaps that the part of you that gets enjoyment out of the game is a part of you that through your ritual work is evolving. Perhaps you are getting whatever you needed from the game in another way.

Posted by: Orr Mar 29 2009, 10:47 AM

Velarius how much time have you been doing this ritual???

Posted by: Mchawi Mar 30 2009, 05:02 AM


... your computer game may well have been a distraction or your, 'addiction' to it an unhealthy one.

Am in full agreement with Velarious on the practicality of this ritual in all its forms. Speaking for its use in banishing, over the past few weeks I've been in complete awe at its ability to restore harmony in times of strife, really is intresting how a negative current can have a hold on you and the control over ones emotional fields one really has and can excersize through the frequent use of this ritual.... my only questioning of it is one regarding its longevity perhaps but thats about it.

.M.


Posted by: Orr Mar 30 2009, 02:40 PM



actually since i have been doing the lbrp(almost a month) i have quit smoking!! its quite incredible because i have tried it many times... but now i just dont need it anymore!!

Posted by: Mchawi Mar 31 2009, 06:07 AM


The same happened to me once I got into the elemental grades, the addiction just fell off, although, and I was warned, it does tend to take another form and tends an attempt to come back from a renewed angle.

Pays to be weary.

Posted by: Fio Praeter Humanus Feb 11 2011, 12:23 PM

bump

Posted by: Mchawi Feb 11 2011, 12:30 PM


How do you begin to study the pentagram rituals?

Posted by: Waterfall Feb 11 2011, 02:20 PM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Feb 11 2011, 01:30 PM) *

How do you begin to study the pentagram rituals?

You converse with the entities involved. I was instructed to do the LBRP for a year as part of my early training, never letting it become habit but always with emotion and thorough visualization. I was also given a sequence to follow with the pentagram rituals, involving a meditation after each invoking and a conversation with the entities in each pentagram. If you want to do this write the results in your journal and see what you get.

Posted by: Mchawi Feb 13 2011, 11:41 AM


Hmmmm... thanks waterfall, at one point I was attuning myself to the elements attempting to feel them in a shuffled tarot pack, got quite good at it being "able" to see into a card without knowing it but I stopped practicing and have likely reverted somewhat. The task was to see the element, smell it, feel it and so on using the five senses clairvoyantly.

Might start again.

Posted by: Waterfall Feb 13 2011, 06:46 PM

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Feb 13 2011, 12:41 PM) *

Hmmmm... thanks waterfall, at one point I was attuning myself to the elements attempting to feel them in a shuffled tarot pack, got quite good at it being "able" to see into a card without knowing it but I stopped practicing and have likely reverted somewhat. The task was to see the element, smell it, feel it and so on using the five senses clairvoyantly.

Might start again.

Consider it a type of shamanic journey or Jungian active imagination, though there is no need to go into trance or anything so extreme to get good results. My experience with the elements (and I was not taught this in the traditional sequence, so it may be unique to me) is that contact with them requires patience, respect and willingness to spend serious time communicating. If I treat them as friendly and interesting guests then they are cooperative in many senses. Acting like this is a test, making contact and then "going on" to something else will cause them to ignore you.

Posted by: frater sacred Mar 19 2016, 01:15 PM

Question 1: Is the Lesser Ritual Pentagram of elemental nature? I read from somewhere that the Banishing Earth Pentagram we draw is not of elemental nature. An elemental pentagram would comprise of the kerubic sign. If it is not of elemental nature, what nature of forces are we drawing?


Question 2: If the ritual is not of elemental nature, why donít we draw other three form of banishing pentagram in its respective direction?


Question 3: The divine names used in the four directions do not correspond to Qabalah (Tree of Life).

It does not make sense we use:
East: YHVH
South: Adonai
West: Eheieh
North: Agla

YHVH: Tetragrammaton, which comprises of 4 elements. However, direction of East correspond to Air.
Adonai corresponds to Earth element, which is the direction of North
Eheieh corresponds to Air element, which is the direction of East.
Agala comprises of Gibor, which correspond to Fire element, direction of South.

To replace and rearrange the Divine names to correspond to Qabalah, doesnít it make more sense to use?:

East: Eheieh
South: Agla
West: El
North: Adonai

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