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 Q&a: Lbrp And The Pentagram Rituals, What do you want to know about the pentagram rituals?
Fio Praeter Humanus
post Jun 6 2007, 05:53 AM
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QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 5 2007, 06:18 PM) *
Hmmm... I get ya. Not sure 'bout those either, if I was more daring i'd give it a try for a while but I'm weary in regards to things like this. Works well as it is, its just the placing of the elements seemed to make sence. I mean, why is water opposite air and how does water relate to the sunsetting rather than earth? Its good to question things.

Because air is active and water is passive, same as fire is active and earth is passive. Balance. No as I have already explained the elemental placements are aligned with the four winds of the earth and have nothing to do with the sun at all.

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 5 2007, 06:18 PM) *
Not sure about others or if its a case of becoming accustomed to the energies involved but I have noticed my success rate seems a bit off. Have to admit I haven't felt the intellectual effect of the MP for a while or aquired the, 'voice' kind of state if u know what I mean. Is that normal? My rituals are good but it seems to have left me feeling lacklustered in regards, if you see my point. Was doing nothing different then I don't think.

Also... Fear. Its only one's self one is afraid of, nothing bad is going to happen, fear in its self is a sence, a warning signal, heightened awareness as fight or flight kicks in but yeesh! How do you overcome fear in a ritual? It dampens the practice as it makes (me personally) tone down the ritual in a animal like flight response... even then the LBRP etc are 'measly' when thinking about some of the other invoking rituals with other dieties involved so its obviously something that needs to be overcome.

It takes time to become proficient in this and any ritual. You should not be feeling fear from performing the LBRP. Perhaps it is the inner depths welling up or when people first start the LBRP you tend to light up the astral for awhile so you might be drawing astral junk to you.

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 5 2007, 06:18 PM) *
Can't 'things' get under the pents? Shouldn't there be a pent on the floor?

No the circle is infinite.




QUOTE(animus @ Jun 6 2007, 04:19 AM) *
I want the circle in the LBRP yes, but what about the elemental pentagram rituals, without the circle, the banish/invoke goes further than if i would have a circle (then it would only go as far as inside the circle, no?


The circle is infinite. You are projecting the energies to the edge of the universe.


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Mchawi
post Jun 6 2007, 06:10 AM
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QUOTE
or when people first start the LBRP you tend to light up the astral for awhile so you might be drawing astral junk to you.


Yeah thats it, get an astral twinge and it scares me, as though I'm suddenly not the only one around.

So Air is active, water is passive. How so, what does this mean exactly?

Guess electric blue is the best for cloaks. Knew it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Is there a best time to practice daily using planetary hours... Or even a specific day of the week?

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Trinetra
post Jun 6 2007, 07:58 AM
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Hi,
i just wondered wheter one could use the magick wand for the LBRP and GIRP.
thanks


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Mchawi
post Jun 6 2007, 08:11 AM
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Air Dagger
^^^

Why is the air dagger used F.Nero?

(will stop bugging you in a bit don't worry)

This post has been edited by Mchawi: Jun 6 2007, 08:13 AM

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Fio Praeter Humanus
post Jun 6 2007, 08:35 AM
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QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 6 2007, 08:10 AM) *
So Air is active, water is passive. How so, what does this mean exactly?

Just like the pillars of the temple. Black and white, active and passive, male and female...

QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 6 2007, 08:10 AM) *
Is there a best time to practice daily using planetary hours... Or even a specific day of the week?


I am not sure what you mean. Timing the LBRP to planetary hours? There is no need for that, there is no planetary associations with it.


QUOTE(Trinetra @ Jun 6 2007, 09:58 AM) *
Hi,
i just wondered wheter one could use the magick wand for the LBRP and GIRP.
thanks


Yes, you can use a standard general wand, a outer wand of double power, your finger, or as popularized by Kraig a black handled dagger borrowed from the solomonic tradition.


QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 6 2007, 10:11 AM) *


The air dagger is not used for the LBRP. It can be used for the greater or supreme pentagram ritual of air, and in certain designed rituals requiring the influence of air and what it represents but generally no, the air dagger is too specific a weapon for this.


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Mchawi
post Jun 6 2007, 08:58 AM
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^ Yeah, thats what I meant, that you don't use the air dagger... the picture was to show what you shouldn't be using. Sure Kraig says to use one though.

Soooo the BRH can be done at a certain time to better its effects? Like on a saturday in the morning.

Digging for gold now.

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animus
post Jun 6 2007, 09:04 AM
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QUOTE(Nero @ Jun 6 2007, 06:53 AM) *
The circle is infinite. You are projecting the energies to the edge of the universe.


This has got me pondering, thank you again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)


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Fio Praeter Humanus
post Jun 6 2007, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 6 2007, 10:58 AM) *
^ Yeah, thats what I meant, that you don't use the air dagger... the picture was to show what you shouldn't be using. Sure Kraig says to use one though.

Soooo the BRH can be done at a certain time to better its effects? Like on a saturday in the morning.

The black handled dagger and the air dagger are completely different tools for different uses.

The hexagram rituals can be used anytime just for general invocation, working with planetary energies. If you were invoking planetary energies for something specific like to charge a talisman then yes it is better to do it on the correct day and hour of the planet in question.


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Mchawi
post Jun 12 2007, 06:54 AM
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Ok... sorry if i pissed you off before.

Is it possible to use sigils to do the LBRP? Programming the intent in such a way as to bring about the effect of having done the ritual/s?

Am taking to understanding what you meant by the LBRP being directional but don't really understand. Can you explain the thinking behind it? Have been focusing on charging the pents more so than I did before and would like to understand more of your method of thinking if it dosen't infringe on anything.

Thanks

M

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Fio Praeter Humanus
post Jun 12 2007, 08:30 AM
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QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 12 2007, 08:54 AM) *
Is it possible to use sigils to do the LBRP? Programming the intent in such a way as to bring about the effect of having done the ritual/s?

It is possible to program a mental trigger to bring on the mental state produced by the LBRP, but it would take at least a year or more of practice to instill it. Even then I would believe you would still need a banishing for most ritual work. It is best just to stick to the ritual and learn what it will teach you.
QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 12 2007, 08:54 AM) *
Am taking to understanding what you meant by the LBRP being directional but don't really understand. Can you explain the thinking behind it?

Go back and read what Regardie wrote about the lesser pentagram ritual in his book The Golden Dawn. He is very clear that the elemental directions given in the pentagram ritual are based on the terrestrial four winds. While the elemental placements found in the hexagram ritual are from the zodiac. The rule of thumb is in drawing forces to you use the terrestrial arrangement and when going to the forces use the celestial ones.


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Mchawi
post Jun 13 2007, 08:33 AM
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Ok...

Just read a topic you replied in... that one where the guy invoked the element of earth and left the gate open over night rather than banishing the element again... can't find the topic but you replied in it... will try and find it again....

Anyway, Is this safe to do if you have family in the house at all? Like the sound of this idea and it seems to have worked, seems to be a good way of getting aquainted with an element.

What do you think?

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Fio Praeter Humanus
post Jun 13 2007, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE(Mchawi @ Jun 13 2007, 10:33 AM) *
Ok...

Just read a topic you replied in... that one where the guy invoked the element of earth and left the gate open over night rather than banishing the element again... can't find the topic but you replied in it... will try and find it again....

Anyway, Is this safe to do if you have family in the house at all? Like the sound of this idea and it seems to have worked, seems to be a good way of getting aquainted with an element.

What do you think?


No, it is a very good way to get unbalanced. When I was a zelator I was looking for ways to speed up the process and also to cut down my ritual time. It occurred to me that if I did not banish after I invoked earth then the energy would stay with me and aid in my evolution. Repeated use of this resulted in a bad imbalance that took me some time to correct before I could progress and actually ended up costing me time as I had to spend longer than I had planned in the grade. Later I attempted to skip the initial banishing and only invoke the element in an effort to save time. It was apparent in a very short period of time that this was not efficient as the energy invoked just didn't feel pure, it was mixed and not pure elemental earth. It was a hard lesson but a good one to learn.

Always open and close your workings with a banishing. The post you referring to the magician left it open for a very specific purpose of attempting to contact Auriel. It is not a method I would advise but he managed to gather some results from it, but definitely not something you would want to do often.


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Gregathol
post Jun 14 2007, 06:45 PM
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I have a small question about the LBRP. Is it wise for a beginner to perform both invoking and banishing, or should he initially use only the banishing pentagrams?

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Fio Praeter Humanus
post Jun 15 2007, 07:39 AM
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QUOTE(Gregathol @ Jun 14 2007, 08:45 PM) *
I have a small question about the LBRP. Is it wise for a beginner to perform both invoking and banishing, or should he initially use only the banishing pentagrams?


Good question. The original teachings of the Golden Dawn was LIRP in the morning and LBRP at night. Generally most orders now teach to become efficient at the LBRP first then start using the LIRP. I happen to agree. My personal advice is this: Perform the LBRP twice a day every day for a full month. The teachings say it takes about twice a day routine of a full luner cycle before you begin to notice the results of the ritual. After that switch to a invoking in the morning and banishing at night schedule.


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bumdhar
post Jun 15 2007, 06:45 PM
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This is great stuff above!

So the sign of silence....Would it be advisable to use it all the time in the LBRP? I've seen it done both ways, though I usually do it without, (per Kraig MM where I learned it at 16)

I did the LBRP everyday for a year (per Regardie) and it was a totally unproductive year in terms of my creative interests. I wonder if it's because I don't use the sign of silence to seal each pentagram? Or maybe because my creative powers were going into visualizing?

Or maybe it had nothing to do with the Ritual at all.

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Mchawi
post Jun 19 2007, 01:29 PM
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Hi again.

Have been thinking about those directions.

North = Earth, West = Water.

In looking for a Qi-Gong class I've found that they use the same directions. Is it viable to do a swap and follow this system instead? Or would it mess up later work? Just dosent bode well to be doing Q-gong and relating the directions as such.

Thanks for the book reccomendations as well, just ordered them and a few on astrology.

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altpath
post Jul 16 2007, 10:44 PM
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QUOTE(Nero @ May 14 2007, 08:34 AM) *
The pentagrams are seen as blue or white. There is no real significance here as that is just how they appear when viewed on the astral plane.


This may just be my opinion, but it seems to me that the color of the pents and the ring that binds them is important.

If you look at the QC, by invoking geburah and gedulah, it makes sense that the LBRP would use these forces to form the pents (in blue for chesed) and geburah to form the circle (forming a ring of red fire). I'm going by one way of practicing this ritual that I read about a while back. It makes more sense, doesn't it? There is so many different variations of this ritual, that it seems to me this is the most correct, kabbalistically speaking.

One thing that bothers me is that no matter where I look, there are different variations of the BRH. There is no clear method given anywhere for properly performing the BRH, or the invoking version. What is the original BRH banishing, saturn??? I can understand why it would be necessary to banish saturn if it's associated with bad luck.


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Into_Dust
post Aug 9 2007, 10:16 AM
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Hi... I also have a question about the LBRP.
I'm new to CM and have read quite a lot of instructions for this ritual but non of them said what to do when the ritual is over.
What should I do after the second QC?
Just end it and go back to my normal day or should I say "good-bye" to the angels? Open the circle?

Sorry if this question seems a bit weird but I'm really new to CM and English is not my native tongue so it's hard for me to explain what I mean.

greets
I_D

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Fio Praeter Humanus
post Aug 13 2007, 06:57 AM
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QUOTE(Into_Dust @ Aug 9 2007, 12:16 PM) *
Hi... I also have a question about the LBRP.
I'm new to CM and have read quite a lot of instructions for this ritual but non of them said what to do when the ritual is over.
What should I do after the second QC?
Just end it and go back to my normal day or should I say "good-bye" to the angels? Open the circle?

Sorry if this question seems a bit weird but I'm really new to CM and English is not my native tongue so it's hard for me to explain what I mean.

greets
I_D


Nothing, the rite is ended. If you are using it as a opener then move on to the next working step. Otherwise you have performed your banishing.


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Mchawi
post Sep 29 2007, 10:57 AM
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Have to admit I like closing my rituals, kinda miss the astral tinged air my room would get at times but I get less 'disturbances' after a good license to depart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mf_popeanim.gif)

First off, apologies to sir Nero, I have since re-evaluated my practice and understand what you meant by it being directional (IMG:style_emoticons/default/doh.gif) Am now doing the IRP and the IRH when I can. Still elemental as I use the Egyptian version of the ritual but anyway...

Am looking to attempt the supreme version of the rituals but why do the lesser if you can do the supreme version in the first place? Seems pointless... can one swap the usage employ the SIRP in place of the lesser or am I missing an essential and obvious point here? Kraig has it that the practitioner should move straight on to the SIRP after the Hexagram ritual, think it was you that advised against that and after doing the IRH a few times I see why .lol.

Peace
M

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ComaOfLoss
post Oct 31 2007, 04:11 AM
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QUOTE(Nero @ May 29 2007, 03:33 PM) *
The unicursal hexagrams were made popular by crowley. Pat Z, mentions it was not invented by crowley but was rather an experimental hexagram form used within the golden dawn. What the actual truth is I have no clue. I use the traditional hexagrams but I do admit the unicursal hex for sol is a lot easier than the traditional one. Once again it is a personal choice and I do not think it really matters which you use as long as you pick one and stick with it.


I think they're originally from India. (Or Nepal or Tibet). Here's one in Muktinath, Nepal:

(IMG:http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e394/nakedzen/unicursal.jpg)

This post has been edited by ComaOfLoss: Oct 31 2007, 04:12 AM

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shamanwizard
post Oct 31 2007, 10:25 AM
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so the true ancestry of the hexagran is asian?????? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shok.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused012.gif)


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ComaOfLoss
post Oct 31 2007, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE(wizardgryphon @ Oct 31 2007, 06:25 PM) *
so the true ancestry of the hexagran is asian?????? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shok.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused012.gif)


Well, if you ever go to India or Nepal you'll see hexagrams and swastikas eveywhere. As I've
understood (feel free to correct me) the hexagram is a sort of a jing/jang symbol. The upwards triangle
represents the male (fire) and the downward triangle female (water).

The swastika on the other hand propably represents the cycle of life/rebirth.

(IMG:http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa168/matkakuvia/Intia%20Nepal%2007/Katmandu/IMG_0391.jpg)
Not really anything to do with the nazis there.

(IMG:http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa168/matkakuvia/Intia%20Nepal%2007/Varanasi/IMG_0561-1.jpg)
Temple of Durga, Varanasi India.

(IMG:http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa168/matkakuvia/Intia%20Nepal%2007/Katmandu/IMG_0251.jpg)
Swastika and the Star of David side by side in Kathmandu.

(IMG:http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa168/matkakuvia/Intia%20Nepal%2007/Katmandu/IMG_0236.jpg)
House of the Kumari, Kathmandu.

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shamanwizard
post Oct 31 2007, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE(ComaOfLoss @ Oct 31 2007, 04:05 PM) *
Well, if you ever go to India or Nepal you'll see hexagrams and swastikas eveywhere. As I've
understood (feel free to correct me) the hexagram is a sort of a jing/jang symbol. The upwards triangle
represents the male (fire) and the downward triangle female (water).

The swastika on the other hand propably represents the cycle of life/rebirth.

that does make sence


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palindroem
post Oct 31 2007, 04:10 PM
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Be careful to not get lost in the study of the symbols "origins".
These are essential universal in design and can be found from Nordic carvings to African tribal designs even native American woven art.
Its easy to forget thier importance as communicators of structure and intention for you, to the anthropologicals of origins with
other people and probably for somewhat different cultural psyches and needs.

This post has been edited by palindroem: Oct 31 2007, 04:14 PM


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Mchawi
post Nov 13 2007, 07:17 AM
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Bit of a stupid question...

Is it ok to do the sign of silence after drawing and charging each pent/hex?

Have been doing it for a while, kind of seals me in.but I don't want to be making one of those personalized adaptation mistakes.

Also, how do I associate with each of the Archs/Dieties? Am now pretty good at both the LBRP and BRH rituals but would like to communicate with each of them before I move on and start that book you recommended.

Have been using the Egyptian version up until now but might swap back to using Hebrew to continue with the work.

Peace
M

This post has been edited by Mchawi: Nov 13 2007, 07:52 AM

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Fio Praeter Humanus
post Nov 13 2007, 08:05 AM
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If you are using the sign of the enterer, which you should for the Lesser pentagram ritual, then it should always be answered with the sign of silence. The greater and supreme version is generally charged by stabbing it with the wand or fingers and charged from tiphareth. Then after the charging the elemental sign is used. These are not two part signs and the sign of silence is not needed. Although you can use the sign of the enterer and the sign of silence for all the pentagram rituals if you wish.

Daily use of the pentagram rituals will already build a familiarity with the archangels. If you wish to do more you can pick one of them and meditate on him and his qualities after the ritual. After some time pick a new one until you have all four.


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Mchawi
post Nov 13 2007, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE(Nero @ Nov 13 2007, 09:05 AM) *
If you are using the sign of the enterer, which you should for the Lesser pentagram ritual, then it should always be answered with the sign of silence. The greater and supreme version is generally charged by stabbing it with the wand or fingers and charged from tiphareth. Then after the charging the elemental sign is used. These are not two part signs and the sign of silence is not needed. Although you can use the sign of the enterer and the sign of silence for all the pentagram rituals if you wish.

Daily use of the pentagram rituals will already build a familiarity with the archangels. If you wish to do more you can pick one of them and meditate on him and his qualities after the ritual. After some time pick a new one until you have all four.


Ok...

Have, 'bumped into' the angels a few times in ritual but could or should I invoke them or something? Am a bit of a perfectionist, want to see them in all their glory before I move on to rituals proper.

Bit off topic but do you have the I Ching on the tree of life? Need it for my book of trees, got 777 but it dosen't state where each hexagram is and the Thelmic Tree with the I ching I've seen is diffrent to the one Crowley gives.

Will ask in the beginners forum.

Thanks

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AmethistA
post Dec 14 2007, 10:14 AM
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Just out of curiosity, i am not really confortable using the jewish legacy part of the LBRP. Do you believe it would be less functional, and would bear less results, to change the four divine names with other deities? And the Archangels with something else?

How much of the power of the ritual is depending on the paradigm and the jewish correspondences?

Thank you.

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Fio Praeter Humanus
post Dec 14 2007, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE(AmethistA @ Dec 14 2007, 11:14 AM) *
Just out of curiosity, i am not really confortable using the jewish legacy part of the LBRP. Do you believe it would be less functional, and would bear less results, to change the four divine names with other deities? And the Archangels with something else?

How much of the power of the ritual is depending on the paradigm and the jewish correspondences?

Thank you.


Some people are just not comfortable with Jewish and Christian references. Obviously the Golden Dawn system is built heavily on them, but if you feel you need to change them to better match your view of the divine then that is fine and encouraged. The newer copies of Regardie's Middle Pillar book actually have several versions of the LBRP using Celtic, Pagan, Egyptian, etc language and symbols.


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