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 All about Money Magick, and broke magicians :)
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post Jun 1 2005, 12:13 PM
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Oh, this should be fun.
I was told that most magicians are broke the other day from a friend and are quite bewildered. I am half agreed to this since logically it simply does not make sense to associate practicing the occult with not being financially successful. I haven't done any money magick but the magick of working hard, so I have no idea what's the relationship of practicing the occult + how does it affect us financially/other areas of our life. What's your take on this?

Logically magicans can do money rituals if they're broke right? but why do they stay broke? Does most people practicing magick has a common values that limit their performance to be wealthy? I don't think people want to be poor by choice as money is a like to the lifeblood of quality life we all desire. By quality life I mean you get to own fine products and luxuries money can offer which you can get most of the time you desire it.

Several questions I have on money magick and practicing the occult. Well, silly questions but I hope its worth asking just for the fun of discussing it:

- Does practicing magick somehow make a person broke? I notice when I first get into the occult - bad luck follows and read several similar themed posts on other forums. Any explanation for this?

- I read that successful money ritual will bring only the amount you required, however this amount is taken from your "lifetime prosperity wallet" - whatever that means (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) True or not? How much money have you ever earnt doing money ritual?

- Has anyone ever get rich doing money magick?

- Has anyone ever get rich, famous and powerful by selling their soul that you know of? lol!


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mediocracy
post Jun 1 2005, 02:56 PM
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Magick and the Occult is a licence to print money. Just call yourself a medium and con a load of folks in to giving you money so they can communicate with their dead relatives. Or become a professional tarot card reader and charge Ł30+ per reading. Just visit in Psychik Fayre (sic) and you can see how easy it is to make money at this.

Then ask yourself why it is that the inspiring and enlightened souls of the past died in poverty. Why is it that material wealth meant so little to Jesus or Buddha? Why was it that John Dee travelled across europe at great risk and fled his comfortable estate in England, all in search of knowledge?

Money magick is a debasement of the 'art'. Much like using love magick, it brings no real advancement in knowledge and is a dead end. If you want to make money then take up spoon bending and selling 'magic' healing crystals.

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SlowLoris
post Jun 27 2005, 08:08 AM
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Surely the reason most practicing magicians are broke is that, the moment they have a spare penny, they dash out and spend it rooting for secondhand treasures in their local occult bookshop? Or is that, perhaps, just me?

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DollHouseKitty
post Jun 27 2005, 08:57 AM
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Making money from readings or an occult shop does not always mean your abusing the power. I give readings for a living, through a need to help others who have searched and found nothing in other sources, and the fact that it's what I'm best at (currently). If I charge someone for a reading, I don't give them a bunch of a crap (Miss Cleo ruined it for us decent ones). Also, selling stones and trinkets is not bad either for those who are honest. I know plenty of people who use their ability for money and have found much success through it, only because they are respecting it, not taking it for granted.

Occult practioners who are wise enough, understand that casting money spells usually end in consequence. Those who go into a casting with greed are apt to end up in poverty. Why? Because as a rule, those who are greedy, are lazy. And idle lives do not not pay off in the end. If you work for your need, you more bound to an enjoyable life, one filled with things that you actually deserve.

Money spells, as far as I'm concerned, are an abuse to the system. If you need money badly enough, cast a spell to give the opportunity to earn it, such as a job opening or promotion.

A successful money spell will take money from your lifetime prosperity wallet? I've actually never heard that, and in all honesty, think nothing of it.

As for the making a person broke aspect? Magick does not make the person broke, the person does. If you think that you need to spend all your money on mundane tools to help you, then by all means, it's your problem alone. I for one, see no necessity in tools, for the only tool I need is my mind. I used to think that buying wands and candles and altar pentacles would help me, then the time came when I realized it's all crap (for myself). I still love stones and crystals, and will continue to buy them for the rest of my life, but only under the thought that I see beauty in them, not because I see them as necassary. It's a hobbie, if you must. Not something I'll spend 3/4 of my paycheck on.


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A_Smoking_Fox
post Jun 27 2005, 10:07 AM
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I don't know.

I'm not wealthy as i am still in school.
I expect to make some decent cash as a network administrator or developer once i finish.

On the other hand, i am thinking of studying philosophy, which will keep me poor and without a job until i am 28 and finished it.


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SlowLoris
post Jun 27 2005, 10:51 AM
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Of course, the best things in life are free. Irony, perhaps, or an awakened sense of humour.

If we must be so entirely serious, though, perhaps someone could begin by explaining to me the link between hard work and moral worth, of "deserving" material wealth which seems to lie at the crux of DollHouseKitty's argument. As far as I'm concerned, the whole notion of a work ethic became obsolete at the moment human beings discovered agriculture, and thus, restructured their economic output to become dependent on a more complex set of variables than raw berry-gathering hours. If we allow application and dilligence to become part of the moral equation then we have to explain how Mussolini and Torquemada (both notorious workaholics) do not thus become more "deserving", while Bob Marley and Mahatma Gandhi become less so, able-bodied and intelligent people more "deserving" than the physically and mentally challenged, and our local power-stations ultimately more morally deserving than any or all of us put together, as able to churn out a potentially limitless supply of energy in the form of work for as long as its fuel-supplies last.

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A_Smoking_Fox
post Jun 27 2005, 11:13 AM
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wonderful insight SlowLoris.

perhaps i will take up philosophy after all, instead of an empty job


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DollHouseKitty
post Jun 27 2005, 01:01 PM
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Well, since my post got ripped apart again, I'll answer it again. Everything happens for a reason. Karma may or may not have something to do with it, who knows.

Think of it this way, if everyone had the same thing, we would be bored to death. We need the rich folk for poor folk to look up to for inspiration or activism. We need the poor folk so that some people can work towards helping them. The same with anything else, different careers, inventions, etc.

Once again, having to think outside the box for majority, what one sees as deserving for another, may not be the same case for the guy next to them. The bad guy gets the riches or the fame while the good guy gets no recognition. Why? Because it was meant to be that way for that one person, not meant to be the way someone else thinks it so should be. Instead of worrying about their own success' or failures, people get angry and uptight because someone else has what they want, or someone else has done something against their moral/ethical code. So what if Mussolini acquired all this wealth through his harsh ways, that's how HE did it, not you or anyone else. He thought it was the correct move for himself, so he did it. It's usually called taking action. Granted, it was crappy, and a total Kudos to the people who rallied against him. But that makes him no less deserving of what he got or didn't get then the next person. Look at what happened in the end? Look at it from every angle, not just tunnel vision.

It's like in magic(k), I practice Dragon/Fae, and someone on here might be a Chaote. I don't like Chaos at all, but that is NOT going to make me say "Well...you should stop practicing that form because it's bad and I don't agree with it. I think your acquiring your spiritual growth through negative means." Tsk Tsk to me for even thinking that! Why? Because that person feels it's the proper way for HIM to grow, while working with Dragons and Fae is the proper way for me to grow.

To sum it up really nicely, people do as they will, and they will suffer on their own time, regardless of what another thinks they should do, or when they should suffer. If it directly influences your life in ways that are uncomfortable, then take actions to remove those factors from your life, not theirs. And vice versa.

Anyways, if some of this doesn't make sense, sorry...I just got back from the doctors and am feeling a little out of sorts. I'd be totally glad to answer anything from this later on when I gather my bearings.


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SlowLoris
post Jun 27 2005, 01:41 PM
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A splendid argument for a degree of relativism in anybody's moral outlook, and indeed for refraining from ticking people off on the internet, although I'm not sure you'll carry the gallery when you extend your defence to plunging great civilizations into the nightmare abyss of Fascism, in the name of "taking action". It's less servicable as an answer to my initial question, which is, why is a sponge-cake acquired by work any more or less less morally acceptable than a sponge-cake acquired by magic, or gaming, or as a gift, or by finding a silver Spongecakeland Dollar in the street?

Are you quite sure that there has to be a disparity in wealth for humanity's spiritual evolution? What about those intransigents like myself who have no intention of looking up to "rich folks" for inspiration, activism or anything else on earth (and indeed would be positively ashamed of doing so) since the desire to be rich is a long, long way down the order of priorities?

And is it really "the same with anything else"? How about penicillin? Do we need infected people, so that the non-infected people can have somebody to cure? In which case, perhaps we ought to reinstate leper colonies, in order that a few fortunate non-leprous individuals might thereby have the opportunity of harvesting moral righteousness by looking after them. (The gentle reader will note that I'm being deliberately ironic, here; but if this is preposterous, how does it differ in kind from the suggestion above?)

I'm aware that we are drifting off-topic here, and that social theories of labour are related to money-magic tangentially at best; if others are interested, perhaps we might pick it up elsewhere?

I shall note, however, that using The Art to increase one's material prosperity is possible, and can be beneficial. Some time ago I set myself the discipline, for a period of time, of only reading occult books or using ritual tools that I had acquired in some sense "magically", including those that I had paid for with money acquired under the influence of magical workings to attract it. Not only did it work splendidly well (had I been frugal and fit at the time, it would have made me - just, barely - enough to live by) it also had the extremely salutary effect of strengthening beyond measure my faith in the power of the Art and the efficacy of Providence.

And, to answer the original question; I am far from rich, but also far from broke; these are not my main concerns. As regards economics, my principal endeavor has been to maximise surplus time (which is, of course, the other side of the equation to surplus money), and in that sense, I have managed to organise my affairs very efficiently. It has long been a stipulation of the alchemical sages that to perform the Great Work, a practitioner must be his own master, and therein is a grain of philosophical gold.

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DollHouseKitty
post Jun 27 2005, 03:03 PM
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First of all, this is how I see it, not how I think it should be.

Second of all, because being rich is not on your priority list, does not mean it's on no one elses list. Think outside the box.

I'm talking about money, and talking about the abuse of spells related to such, as how I see it. Which, I thought I explained pretty good. I had also consulted a few others (not on this particular forum) to see if I had explained myself coherently, which was considered just as.

If you don't look up to richies, that's fine, I NEVER said you should, I never said you should use them as inspiration, etc. Did I? Your giving me an arguement based solely on your impressions, I'm giving you an arguement based on as many angles as I can see. At least that is my aim.

You acquired books through magickal means, thats groovy, it worked for you. You seem sensible enough to understand the consequences and how to avoid them through such workings. My point was being that alot of people that I have met have cast them and payed dearly in ways not intended.

Leper colonies? Sorry to say it, but illness is everywhere, and no matter how hard you try and wiggle your nose, it will never disappear, and the people who try and help the illnesses, are TRYING out of compassion. Some may do for self-glorification and all that, but that's their deal. Moral righteousness is in the eye of the beholder, and if you can't accept the fact not everyone thinks along the same lines as you, your gonna run into alot of arguements. Keep in mind, this is not solely directed at one person!

I'm trying to keep it simple, by simply stating not everyone "deserves" the same thing, because not everyone is the same. That's what makes life interesting, y'know, diversity? But instead, it gets all jumbled up by complicated tunnels. S**t happens, if it doesn't work for you, move on and find something that does. And if you aren't meant to have it, move on again and find something that you are meant to have.

Disclaimer: These are strictly my convictions, and are not intended for the use of telling anyone they are wrong. I hope I don't have to keep saying this, since everytime I pose my own beliefs, someone has to come along and tell me I'm wrong in an array of fancy words and phrases.

Namaste


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BlackFrancis
post Jun 27 2005, 03:58 PM
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Money spells! hmm...

I'm more with DollHouseKitty on this. Direct money spells are just outside of the loop as far as I'm concerned. They have no real connection with the earth or it's inhabitants.
As a race, we're collectively responsible for the invention of such forms of magic. No one should be that close to starvation to need this form of magic. And no one should feel a deep lust for material items to cast a spell to obtain them.

Can someone explain to me where the concept for this life-wallet came from? It definately isn't a part of the spirit as Capital was only used in a small portion of our existance. In the time of tribes we were comfortable enough growing together, and would never have thought twice about some life-time allowance in the form of Capital.
And isn't this life-wallet just another fancy term for Karma? I may be mistaken, but it looks that way to me.

May I propose the idea that you just ride the waves? When money isn't available, best leave it that way as there could be a good reason for it. Poverty isn't forever, unless you're one of the unlucky ones to be born into a lower-class family and be refused middle-class education.

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A_Smoking_Fox
post Jun 27 2005, 04:00 PM
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First of all, you are strangely defensive dollhouskitty. I read nothing offensive in any post here. As far as a can tell SlowLoris is just saying his opinion, he is not attacking you. Before you read take notice that none of this is an attack against you. I am just pointing out where i disagree, and i am saying how that i see these things. There is no aggression or contempt or even any emotion in any of these words. I respect what you said, but this is what i think.

Second, i don't think that you are using spells for magick in an unethical way.
You are supplying customers with a service, you perform the service and you get payed for it. the customers get what they asked for and you get payed.
Also, you are definitely not being paid for spiritual progress. perhaps you get some progress spiritually trough your work, i get progress to in school. But mostly it is just a job and nothing more, sure you use magick but no important progress is made trough it.
The progress is made when you study magick at home, or when you do meditation or whatever it is that you do, the progress helps you do your work better but i don't think your work gives you progress.

A job is a job, it earns you money because you do the work. whether you use your muscles, your brains or your magick its all the same.

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I do not believe that using magick for personal gain is wrong, i have said before that a person should use all his skills in life to advance.
The only catch is that personal gain is not spiritual gain.
Their is also the danger of going over the line and having personal gain at the cost of someone else, which can be done without magick too.
Whether you hit someone in the face or use black magick on him, the end karma result is the same.
It is not the tools you use, magick or your hand, it is the action that you perform that describes the morality. It sometimes seems that people think that black magick is evil, but stabbing people in the back in the conventional way is still allowed. Use magick folks, its easier and its just as evil as using the conventional talk behind the back scheming.

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True, people are helping other people out of compassion. That does not mean illness is there just so people can show compassion. Illness exists because of bacteria, not because of some divine scheme.
Your reasoning will allow me to become a murderer because the prison workers need a job.

Everybody deserves to be happy, there is no reason why some people are more wealthy than others. Life just is that way. Do you really believe that someone like Bin laden deserves to be wealthy more than me. Has he earned it? Is he putting his money to good use, ask the survivors of 11-11. Perhaps he really deserves it, so he can use it to train terrorists in the finest schools. perhaps the people that where inside the wtc deserved to die, so that the resque workers got a job.
I can see the bigger picture, its for the greater good (being sarcastic here)

Life has no logic, you may not like chaos, but then you are in the wrong world, there is no order. Nature is pure chaos, have you ever been in a rain-forest, pure chaos...

Order is what humans create, its unnatural. But it sure makes our life's comfortable. with our money banks, and our secure homes and our law system keeping criminals at bay. Until a plane drives into your office building and nothing seems to remain of the order, so fragile it is.

---

In the end every human being wants only 1 thing, and that is to be happy. The road to it may be different and the definition of happiness too, but everybody does what they do just to be happy.


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And once again, i am not telling you you are wrong. You seem to think people tell you you are wrong. (Key, in this last phrase i am telling you you are wrong, i see the irony, lol)


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A_Smoking_Fox
post Jun 27 2005, 04:03 PM
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what you are saying makes me think of the Jews in the bible a little

They said that sick people deserved to be ill, because they were evil in some way and where being punished by god. Jesus was frowned upon for trying to help the people with his mojo.


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DollHouseKitty
post Jun 27 2005, 05:33 PM
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Lol...I totally said people deserved to be ill. Yes, that's exactly it.

I DO grow from giving readings, thank you. I grow everytime I talk with a client. My abilities never just "stop" at a certain point, they blossom more and more everytime I read, which is just as spiritual as knowing everything about a certain form of magick. If not purer. Just because I'm giving someone advice, does not mean that I can learn from their predicament.

If you don't mind my asking, what DOES constitute spiritual learning? Because I get this impression that spiritual learning seems to involve only big, important doo-dads of life? It's like there is almost this list of certain things you can do, to only learn spiritually. What makes this list? And who can fit on it? Because there also seems to be this thing that a select number of people can learn if they do the select number of things correctly?

What is important to me, may not be important to the next person. Why does it always seem to come back around to the idea that just because someone finds something informative or important to them, it's not "spiritualy learned"?


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Mr_Merlin
post Jun 27 2005, 10:03 PM
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A few points valid (or invalid) to this posting ...

1. I live on a 'spiritual' path with my wife. We are barely above the water line financially with plenty of debts. I don't really give a bugger about wealth or fame or recognition. I don't want those glamours directed towards me as I prefer to work in the shadows so to speak. Many years ago (ten or more) I had the chance of fame in both acting and in mediumship ... a medium friend of mine had a pilot show on Sky called Bewitched and I could have gone on to the show and performed live but no I didn't want to. I also had the chance for newspaper/magazine interviews having warned a girl about the London Train disaster years back. I warned her not to travel on the train months before the weekend of the train crash. She and her mum wanted to put me in the newspaper etc ... I walked away ... I've done this dozens of times.... on the other hand I have a fame and fortune seeking wife who keeps telling me to 'get the lotto numbers from spirit' to win a million and put us in comfort .... Na .... money and magic do not go hand in hand ... if I will money to come to us it will change my path and change the entire emphasis of my spiritual study ... in a sense I ward myself against having excesses of money! I know I do this and I also know it is more than possible to bring money to us .... times I have been unemployed with no means of paying debts and bills ... here and in the UK ... in each case I've gone into a deep meditative state and wandered the astral .... visualising work ... out of the blue work has always come ... I've been willing to earn the money through my own labours ... that's different to asking for money to come without effort like winning the lotto with numbers coming from the great divide.


2. I've been a professional medium and reader/counsellor for over 15 years. I regrettably charge money for my services ... always a lot LESS than the asking price wherever I may be ... and it is NOT the reading I charge for ... the reading is free ... it is my time which I charge for!!! Over here the asking rate for readings is $65-$100 for about 45 mins to 1 hour .... I charge $50 for up to THREE hours and I was charging only $40 for the same until someone told me I was too cheap. The local Kiwi readers despise me ... for the service and the accuracy I provide in Hamilton ....

3. I too grow spiritually from 'reading' my clients. I recognise that each client represents an aspect of myself; a part of the macrocosm which exists within my own microcosm. By empathising with my client and sending the client away more positive having received insights into their situation, I am opening myself to parts of myself which were previously closed prior to the client coming to see me.

I explain to every client that 'the reading they are about to partake in is an experiment; I cannot guarantee I will provide any insight ... I am like an actor without a script ... I do not know what I am about to reveal' .... The ability to make my clients satisfied ... even the most sceptical and difficult ... provides me always with a tremendous sense of purpose ...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/yahoo.gif) Take these points how you wish ...xx

This post has been edited by Mr_Merlin: Jun 27 2005, 10:16 PM


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A_Smoking_Fox
post Jun 28 2005, 04:24 AM
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fair enough.

What i see as spiritual growth is not the same as magical skill.
trough various readings your magical skill will no doubt increase.

Spiritual growth is rising above the physical plane. Becoming "enlightened". spiritual growth and magical skill have not much to do with each other. the second is just a tool to acquire the first with. the first enables you to be better at the second.

When your clients have big stories that seem to touch you, and you learn important lessons from it, things that change your view on life. That is spiritual growth.

At least how i see it. It is in a way becoming divine, its knowledge and conversation of the holy guardian angel, as they call it in cm.
It's building a deep connection with your higher self.

What is important to me, may not be important to the next person. Why does it always seem to come back around to the idea that just because someone finds something informative or important to them, it's not "spiritually learned"?

You are absolutely right, the definition is different for each person. But spiritual growth always puts you closer to your divine self, its an almost holy connection. it is not the same as common knowledge or magical skill. skill is a good thing, don't get me wrong, i am not bashing your job. Its wonderful to have a job that increases your magical skill.


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SlowLoris
post Jun 28 2005, 06:25 AM
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Of course, materialism is a form of specialised stupidity, and a very gross one at that; and of course many species of magic(k) can be effected without equipment of any kind, although I flatly deny that the same can be said for books. But there are more ways of looking at money than as a simple medium of exchange for goods and services. During my own experiment, for example, it was a simple and effective way of measuring how successful or otherwise my rituals and talismans were, which allowed me to analyse which were the most effective, for me, at that time, and why. Quite the contrary of indulging my acquisitive streak, I soon discovered that it was necessary to cultivate a detatched and objective attitude to the sums involved. I'm told that the same is true of professional poker players: you or I might see a heap of hundred-dollar chips big enough to cash in and buy a new car, or travel the world, or feed ourselves for a certain number of months, while they simply see a score, no different to the figures on a scoreboard at a baseball game.

It appears that, blatant health warnings notwithstanding, irony is a lost cause. So, I shall simply agree wholeheartedly with the proposition that life should be "diverse" and "interesting" even at the expense of allowing people to suffer needlessly, and propose, in all serious, that life would be even more interesting and diverse, and therefore better, if we introduced Medieval serfdom, Greek slavery, and the judicial practices of early-Shogunate Japan. And also introduced live tigers into urban shopping-centres. That, too, would prevent things from becoming boring.

Finally, my apologies for having misunderstood you. When you said "We need the rich folks", I somehow misconcieved the impression that you believed we need rich folks. But your later explanation expounds that this need is a subjective impulse which may or may not become a considered opinion from "another angle", and that this opinion may or may not be yours when considered from any given angle which itself may or may not be possible. Thankyou for enlarging upon that, and sorry to have been so obtuse; it is all much clearer now.

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Bb3
post Jul 2 2005, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE(| Kinjo @ Jun 1 2005, 01:13 PM)
- Does practicing magick somehow make a person broke? I notice when I first get into the occult - bad luck follows and read several similar themed posts on other forums. Any explanation for this?

- I read that successful money ritual will bring only the amount you required, however this amount is taken from your "lifetime prosperity wallet" - whatever that means (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) True or not? How much money have you ever earnt doing money ritual?

- Has anyone ever get rich doing money magick?

- Has anyone ever get rich, famous and powerful by selling their soul that you know of? lol!

I think when people step onto the magical path, most are unprepared for the change and therefore suffer for it.

Yeah, it's true, fortunately daddies got deep, deep pockets. I earned a fair amount of money the one time I properly did money magic.

It's tough to get rich by just doing money magic alone. More often the case you need to follow it up with more action. This question is just too vague!

Yeah, Anna Nicole Smith and others of her ilk! I think people sell their soul for riches far, far more often than for things like power and fame.

Really though, I think the concept of broke magicians is a complete fabrication. Sure most people posting here, probably aren't super rich. I think there are a quite a few people who come from wealthy families who study the occult, but that's more of an educated guess than a fact. By and large, it's pretty simple to see that the majority of magical practioners are from the middle class or lower because these are the people that are more prone to questing for answers and to search for meaning. There's nothing wrong with money magic but it's a very volatile energy.


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Mad skillz

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