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 Black Magic For Good Reasons
Xochipilli
post Aug 24 2008, 08:15 PM
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I hear that black magic encompasses any form of magic done on someone without them agreeing to it whether it be for their benefit or demise. Wouldn't it be possible to do some sorta general ritual where you demand "things just get better for this person" nothing specific so you know you won't end up causing them problems thinking your helping. All you'd be doing is giving them a boost towards a better life. If you were proficient in psionics or whatever would it be possible to just go around causing changes for the better for everyone you run into? I don't see why not. I know I'd like someone helping make life better for me.

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Heathen
post Sep 18 2008, 12:32 PM
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Phrases like "things just get better for this person", "a boost towards a better life" and especially "general ritual" suggest something as vague as themselves. A really general blessing. I don't have much experience, but from what I've learned I know one thing: when you perform a ritual to achieve something, energy works like a laser when focused (on a very particular result) and like simple lightbulb light when out of focus (like "i wanna make the world a peaceful place"). The difference in efficiency is quite obvious, I guess. So the problem is not that the general blessing you mentioned is impossible but - at least for me - highly inefficient. Don't get me wrong, though, maybe someone more proficient in magick would succeed where others would fail (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You've touched upon a very interesting issue, though. Healing without permission and/or knowledge is considered black magick. To tell you the truth, I don't really understand it. People may not want you to interfere in various situations and problems like love, work or whatever but you can be quite sure they do want to recover as soon as possible (at least on the consciousness level, because it might be their subconsciousness that's trying to kill them). So why on earth not?
OK, maybe Karma and stuff... But I don't think that even most of the diseases have their reason in Karma, let alone all of them. So maybe divination first and then healing?


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eternal ginja
post Sep 18 2008, 05:40 PM
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may i touch some of my light on this subject?

the reason "black magick" is called black is not because of what it encompasses but what it does. in order to use the energy of the "darker" arts something must be given in return for the subject trying to be manifested. for ex. if you are trying to make your g/f have a better day cuz right now it's crappy. you would give some of your good day, or good luck, or good intenetions, etc. to her therefore making your day possible for the negative. usually poeple in the "dark" arts don't want to wish something good upon someone else so that they can get the short end of the stick you know. so they find it very convient to do the same thing with a twist:

they put good intentions of someone they don't like onto thier g/f so that the person that is now giving away their good day to your g/f is having a crappy day and no affects come your way... until karma comes. but there are affective ways to waylay karma and thus that's usually what the "dark wizards" learn among the first of their spells, gifts, etc.

now this is all what i learned from a few of my friends. being i've never persued this path i cannot tell you if it truly is what all do, just them.

so in other words, from my freinds exp. something like trying to make someone else's day better means taking it from someone else and therefore it is a "bad" thing

hope it helped (IMG:style_emoticons/default/face08.gif)


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Heathen
post Sep 19 2008, 07:49 AM
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QUOTE
the reason "black magick" is called black is not because of what it encompasses but what it does.

Well, it depends on the person defining it, I guess... For example Kraig writes that any kind of healing a person (or doing anything good or bad to them) without their knowledge and permission is considered black magick. I'd prefer to be healed without not knowing it rather than not to be healed at all... but that's just me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The problem here is, by the way, that this approach kind of reduces the pool of the potential 'patients' as we may be willing to heal/help a lot of people but we may not want to tell all of them that we are going to perform a ritual (and that we believe in it and practice it at all).

Do you think that improving someone's day would make mine worse? I haven't had such experiences. I must say, though, I usually devote myself (and my time & energy) to helping myself rather than the others, so maybe that's why (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway, I've never heard of methods of stealing someone's good-day-energy in order to improve the day of someone who's low on it, but I don't know really...
QUOTE
so in other words, from my freinds exp. something like trying to make someone else's day better means taking it from someone else and therefore it is a "bad" thing

Do you mean ALWAYS? Or maybe it's just your friends that practice black magick...?


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Vagrant Dreamer
post Sep 19 2008, 01:54 PM
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QUOTE(iampagan @ Sep 19 2008, 09:49 AM) *
The problem here is, by the way, that this approach kind of reduces the pool of the potential 'patients' as we may be willing to heal/help a lot of people but we may not want to tell all of them that we are going to perform a ritual (and that we believe in it and practice it at all).


I typically just ask if I can pray for the person I want to help. Your average individual just gives their permission and says thank you. Maybe they take it seriously, maybe they are just being polite - either way, prayer and magical practice are basically one and the same, usually just a difference of who or what you're praying to; your higher self, your inner fountain of power, God Almight, Buddha, Allah, Beelzebub... a ritual is a just a fancy prayer.

On the other hand, if you're absolutely certain that your magic can heal someone, why not just say - "I can help you, please allow me to do so."

QUOTE
Anyway, I've never heard of methods of stealing someone's good-day-energy in order to improve the day of someone who's low on it, but I don't know really...


Neither have I. Most magic works on the basis of transmutation rather than switching of energies. The 'dross' as it were, which only sometimes accumulates, can be grounded into the earth's field, or to some other lower plane. It is not necessary to give up your good day so that someone else can have one. If this is happening when you do magic, you're doing it wrong.

peace


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eternal ginja
post Sep 20 2008, 02:11 AM
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very good points. as i had said i have never practiced the "dark arts" i only can go off my friends that do.

then again they beileve in "equivelant exchange" as well. that's mainly cuz their Full Metal Alchemist fanatics, so their easily influenced. but it sounded pretty well made hypothesis. i can not defend nor really hold up their views. they think they are right so i can not argue. personally i don't believe in "good" or "bad" i think its a state of "mind" which i'm still blurry on what "mind" is anyway. but i guess if i found out the def. of "mind" and liked what i heard i would say that is in the same realms of "good" and "bad" but now i risk ranting of things i know nothing about.

i will say that i would think it to be easier to stay a bit mysterious on what you do but still find a way to get permission if you truly wanted to help someone. i mean i help people everyday... some i show how, some i do at a distance until i know they felt my presence then finish the job by confronting them with a positive attitude to give them that Extra lift so their day from that moment can start positive. i don't really do the whole "I MUST BE SECRETIVE" thing. i either do something without permission but at least make my presence known so people can come to their own conclusions or not or i ask permission.

so yeah. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif)


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Acid09
post Sep 30 2008, 09:59 PM
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Just because you do something with good intentions doesn't make it right. Black magick is doing magick on a person without their permission. But there is more to it then that. It generally involves harming something against their will - blood sacrifices for example. Black magick does not consider ethics. So binding spirits and people is just part of the game. And of course curses/hexes and such are also just a means to an end. It is often used for selfish reasons. I mean say you want to cure a loved one of a deadly illness - would you be curing them out of love for them? Or would you be doing it to avoid feeling harm? Is there such a thing as a completely selfless act? I think so. But its not black magick. To me the meaning of black magick implies some level of selfishness as well as a willingness to harm others. So is black magick something that should be avoided? I think so in most cases. Yet if one understands the expense and risk and they are willing to take it then perhaps doing black magick with good intentions can lead to good outcomes.


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ARSIS-R
post Mar 29 2010, 06:00 AM
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Hmm.. I hear for the first time that colour of magick has a connection with permission) If I heal my friend and he doesn't know that i'm doing magick (at all)... Is it a black magick?
Xochipilli, you can do something good to a person, but remember the law of the saving:
1. If you are doing something good, someone will do something good to you (it's good not for all).
2. If you are doing something good to person X, person's X life will not become esier coz of it. Each person has his own fade, which protected by the "mirror" and if you have transformed person's X hell-day in good-day, the hell-day will come after some time. We can't escape our fade.
If you have some influence on person's life, general lifeway of this person will not go better or worse, it's your dicision to heal or to hit. Do what your heart are telling you to do... It's my opinion for now.

This post has been edited by ARSIS-R: Mar 29 2010, 06:22 AM


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esoterica
post Mar 29 2010, 07:42 AM
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i have always been taught that black magick is just manipulative magick, regardless of them knowing it or not, and the sender gets it thrice, which is what shields are for (blocking, re-absorption or reflecting) - its manipulative as you are interfering with normal natural progression (interfering with some unknown plan of a god for that person, which is where permission would come in?), and the sender supposedly gets it three times cause when you point a finger there are three fingers pointing back at you? - magick is just magick, not black or white or brown or green - bad is bad and good is good and maybe is maybe - only humans with their whacked perception would put naturally round things into square boxes


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ARSIS-R
post Mar 29 2010, 08:01 AM
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Black, White are words only to understand something about the person. If it exists for thousands of years, then it's succesfull word to describe. This words have different meanings in different countries. For example in some places shamans are white and black. Black shamans are stronger, they risk much, but they have more power. They don't do more bad things then white shamans, they simply called so coz of the different way of getting power. Black, White are words only... to understand.

This post has been edited by ARSIS-R: Mar 29 2010, 08:06 AM


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NetHermit
post May 23 2010, 04:29 AM
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Think it be best when you are wondering what type of magick it might be to use a divination system of your choosing to try to get a general ideal of the outcome and if you should do it or not. If the outcome is good with little to no bad side effects id go for it. If the outcome is good but with bad side effects id find another way, etc.

...didn't see date of this but maybe it will help someone else.

This post has been edited by NetHermit: May 23 2010, 04:30 AM


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Hermes56
post Jul 4 2012, 08:47 AM
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the dark versus white comes down to intention. the white ones mostly do it for others the dark ones exclusively do it for themselves. the source of the magic is the same. other stuff like using images, names of lucifer, satan etc are all blinders, because if you internalize your higher self and you call it Lucifer (light bearer) you are still using the same stuff as the light worker who calles it atman. Now,I do magic mostly for others and it is like Capitalism - trickles down. If you are content and happy with what little trimmings you get out of it is fine. If you say screw it I want a Ferrari, fast women beautiful horses (or the other way around (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) then you are dabbling in the dark arts. Your ego is ruling you not your altruistic ideals. We are all one after all. That is a fact of the Universe. Healing without permission meddles with the Law of Karma. No magic can interfere with certain laws, we can use them as surfers but not to go against them.


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Faustus
post Sep 26 2012, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE(Xochipilli @ Aug 24 2008, 09:15 PM) *

I hear that black magic encompasses any form of magic done on someone without them agreeing to it whether it be for their benefit or demise. Wouldn't it be possible to do some sorta general ritual where you demand "things just get better for this person" nothing specific so you know you won't end up causing them problems thinking your helping. All you'd be doing is giving them a boost towards a better life. If you were proficient in psionics or whatever would it be possible to just go around causing changes for the better for everyone you run into? I don't see why not. I know I'd like someone helping make life better for me.


Ultimately, the difference between "white" and "black" magick is the end. You are right in that doing something to someone via magick without that person's permission would be "black" magick -- but only if it interferes with that person's free will and/or freedom of choice. Otherwise, it's fine.


If a friend is an addict and you perform a ritual to end their addiction, then it isn't black magick in as much as that person surrendered their free will to drugs, alcohol, World of Warcraft, porn, the Internet, whatever long ago.

On the other hand, if you perform a ritual to get a couple back together without their permission, you are interfering with their freedom of choice / free will. That kind of work always comes back to bite you on the... you know.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

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lyah
post Oct 25 2012, 10:12 PM
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Well we have a clear consensus on what black magick is....but I tend to ignore the classifications. Over all, everything we do, good and bad, has a price. Its whether youre willing to pay that price. At least, thats how I feel. So intentions are only intentions until you light that fuse. Im not the type to agonize over good or bad too much. I agonize over what its going to cost to see results, and if it will shake the boat. I imagine "white witches" are more worried about this than others. But I wouldn't get too caught up in that. Do what feels natural and good for you; they usually run in tandem. Well, its just a suggestion...

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Draw
post Nov 3 2012, 02:05 PM
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To be honest, i think a lot of what i've done could be classified as black in this way, probably a fair few acts by other definitions.

I don't often ask for permission directly, but i try to if i think they might be able to make an informed decision about it.
Most coincidence type magick seems to work through people with sympathetic wills.. so if they's decided to do a similar thing as you then they already have their 'ports open' to let magick like that happening without ever specifically deciding to aid it.

Permission can come in a multitude of ways.. for example if you want to heal someone.. ask 'would you like to feel better?'
Easier said than done when a person can have conflicting wills an hidden motives, so probing is best.. getting all their mind on-board an getting them to decide on the best outcome is usually half the struggle.
Magick? who gives a monkeys, a will's a will.

Nasty stuff? well all it takes is for them to decide at some point do something similar under a similar logic an it's a perfectly viable route to take. Provided your own superior (an preferably more ethical) logic is still pulling the strings behind the necessary delusional state of mind needed to make use of the opening.

For those good with sensing peoples motives/decisions/will it's a doddle to do anything to any man without integrity up to the eyeballs. Permissions unnecessary.
It takes personal integrity an cunning on behalf of the 'Mage' to do that without becoming just as evil as the man your cursing though..

Thing is, we're all guild ridden in ways.. we live off the lives of other living creatures, try to imagine how many creatures/plants died this year so you could live? what did you do with your time?
Vegan's might have an advantage in some areas where it not for the general guilt of our entire species, they don't get off just cos they opted out of a bacon sandwich.
If shear ignorance wasn't so prevalent we'd all slash our wrists with our own teeth, for some reason we don't though..
i blame the compassion an foresight of the tree's an all the other life, they could destroy us with our own minds but must have chosen not too. Maybe their not in a position to judge, maybe they have faith in us, i don't bloody know.

rambling rambling...

Oh yeah.. working with old people all the time you kind of realize the importants of a persons 'mental capacity' to make a decision, an while that most valuable process should be protected an nurtured, their are inevitably times when it fails people and other's have to make decisions on their behalf..
So.. when talking to a person who dosn't even believe in magick why would you need to ask permission to perform it? Their effectively retarded by their social programming, lack of mental-capacity.

White, Black, Red, Green.. Orange.. I recon if you stick to any one your robbing yourself of the whole you can be.

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tiger
post Jan 1 2013, 02:03 AM
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I do not think that magick is either black nor white , I do however believe that a persons own upbringing determines in their own mind what is right and what is wrong.Some people believe in what goes around comes around, but i personaly belive that if YOU are constantly talking that into your life then thats exactly the thoughtform that will eventually manifest supreme in your own reality .I have seen too many unbalanced scales to ever believe that there is an all powerfull defender of you when some "black" magick is aimed in your direction. If i think that magick will benefit me in some some way I wil way up the pro's and cons with a bit of divination and go from there.If i cop a hiding as a result of poor or amatuer technique then I take all that as tough love and good experience in this new endever of mine.

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