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 Dream Awareness Help
grim789
post Nov 20 2011, 08:07 PM
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Ok so i am not sure if there has been anything posted on this i am sure there has but i will ask again. I was wondering what are some good methods to realizing that i am dreaming and to be aware of it without being all the way unconscious throughout my dream. And how could i take control once i realize that i am dreaming? Also what is the best way to build up this control of essentially waking up in my dream? I would like to be able to do this i understand it will take lots of practice which i am wiling to devote myself to. What kinds of things do some here at the community do whenever lucid dreaming? This seems to be all of my questions for now i will appreciate any help given on the matter.


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Imperial Arts
post Nov 20 2011, 08:36 PM
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You want to "wake up" in your dreams, but you are already awake in the dream.

If you were a different person, with a different life experience, in a world that had different peculiarities from the one you know from ordinary life, you would act differently. The person you are right now - you thoughts and memories - is just an artificial creature, a set of programs you've worked out to make the best of life as you know it. If your life and choices had been different, you would be different too.

Consider just how different you might have been, if you had done things differently. You might be a bum! Or you might be a billionaire. If you were to meet this alternate "you," would you know his thoughts and feelings? No, probably not, but the thoughts and feelings he has would be real and they would be his own. This is similar to the waking thoughts of your dreaming persona: it is you, the real you, but it is constructed to represent you in world where your background and expectations are substantially different, and this character must operate in a world that can be very different from the real world.

What you mean by "waking up" in the dream amounts to a kind of spirit possession of this other person, the alter-ego that is the dream self. It is forcing the ordinary you, equipped to handle ordinary life, upon events that are not a part of ordinary life and in which the waking identity is ineffective at best. In short, you do not want to wake up your normal self in the dream, or even recognize the fact that you are dreaming, but instead to strengthen your awareness of the dreaming self, realizing that it is in fact "you" who are the main character and having his experience as your own.

There are a lot of tricks for accomplishing this end and a lot of things that you can do with it. Knowing what you are dreaming is the number one thing, and that is usually accomplished with a journal. If you don't know what is going on, you are simply not going to be participating in it.

You will start to accumulate data about your dreams, but you will also get an idea of what kind of stresses bring up subjects in a dream. Have you ever watched a scary movie and then had a scary dream? You learn what sort of attention can produce thematic elements in your dream. You start by having a dream about something innocuous like trash cans and then taking note of trash cans in real life. Later on you find that giving attention to trash cans makes them appear in the dream, thereby connecting your waking mental activity with the dreaming activity. Similar programs can be constructed for all sorts of objects, places, people, and actions.

I've written a short treatise on the subject of dreaming as the foundation for personal occult systems, going into more practical details, which you can find in Secrets of Magic along with the illustration of Hera and Hypnos. People read "dream magic" and think they know it all so they don't read it, but there is much more to it than lucd dreaming and the potential for practical aims is much greater.


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Vagrant Dreamer
post Nov 21 2011, 10:04 AM
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I have read the above book, I recommend it highly, there are elements that you are not likely to stumble upon yourself, and it is not overly complicated.

That said, I found that fixing my awareness at the base of my skull while falling asleep significantly increased my awareness of dreams. I don't recall where I heard about this, and originally it involved imagining a glowing purple sphere at that point - it was enough to gently direct my attention there as I fell asleep.

Being relaxed before sleeping helps as well, the progressive relaxation method is simple and direct - start at the toes and work your way up segment by segment consciously relaxing each bit until you get to the top of your head, then start again at the toes suggesting that each segment is going to sleep, all the way up to your brain (I include the organs, but I don't think this is the standard practice; I happen to know where all the bones, muscles, nerves, and organs are). Your body should be pleasantly numb, and if you can fix the attention of your mind it will be able to fall asleep while retaining a degree of awareness. Again, why precisely focusing on this area instead of some other should make dreaming more vivid I don't really know, but I've tried attaching my attention to the chakras, my feet, specific glands, etc., and it doesn't seem to be the fixing of attention itself, so much as this particular spot. Possibly it's different for everyone, I don't know anyone else, personally, capable of attempting the exercise.

peace


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grim789
post Nov 21 2011, 10:40 AM
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Thank you both for the post Vagrant i like the way this method sounds i will try this whenever i go back to sleep which will be soon.


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☞Tomber☜
post Nov 21 2011, 04:29 PM
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Try not falling asleep in the first place. If you can just relax sort of like meditation your body will fall asleep but your mind will be aware. If you intend to wake up in your dream enough, you will eventually begin to with more and more success.


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QUOTE(Vagrant Dreamer @ Jan 30 2013, 02:19 AM) *
Expect nothing, or you will get caught up in the future and not pay attention to the present. Just do the practice diligently, do it because you enjoy it, do it because you believe in it. Don't wait for results, don't wait for it to happen.

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fatherjhon
post Nov 23 2011, 09:57 PM
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I use something very close to what Vagrant does. I only add breathing methods to it. Breathing as slow as I can, pausing at the max and min until my diaphragm relaxes into a neutral space then I begin again. It has any number of helpful effects but mostly keeps your mind active and alert while your body falls asleep. struggling against unconsciousness seems to pull your consciousness mind into your dreams. I find this starts with visuals -fragments of things I have seen of thought of- and at some point recognizing them as illusions forces them to coalesce into a more complex illusion - a proper dream - which my conscious mind has been pulled into. It sounds more complicated than it really is I assure you.

As a side note that spot on the back of your head is called the Jade Gate, it is a minor chakra that governs a state of mind associated with "open-nesn" and "joy-full discovery". A man by the name of Francois Lepine wrote about it as the chakra that "is a doorway to spiritual realities and the forces behind
all movements." Taoists use the point in dream practices (chigong while you sleep).

Imperial Arts has a very good method also. It reminds me of a similar idea in Tibet where it is said that to be enlightened you must know you are asleep. To this end, they advocate "realizing" that you are awake during the day, then doing something to prove it. Mostly it is on the order of picking something up or altering the environment in some way. It progresses from there, but the intent is to accustom the person to working in a reality that may not be anything like what they are used to. It might also be a good way to practice and build up control as you say. Go about picking things up whenever you realize your awake and when you can move something in your dreams, try then to imagine your surroundings changing when you realize your wake. In your dreams the environment is more malleable than what your used to so just imagining that something is changed will often make it so.

For myself, I find remembering what I did the hardest part of the whole affair. Journals are useful, but I had a very hard time remembering to write down what I dreamed. I found that before you lie down, focusing on you body then your chi and then you mind, with the intent that you will remember your dreams in the morning, helped a lot.


--------------------
Cosmic consciousness is devoid of diversity; yet the universe of diversity exists in notion....
We contemplate that reality in which everything exists, to which everything belongs,
from which everything has emerged, which is the cause of everything and which is everything....
The light of [this] self-knowledge alone illumines all experiences. It shines by its own light.
This inner light appears to be outside and to illumine external objects.

-Sage Vasishtha

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grim789
post Nov 24 2011, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE(☞Tomber☜ @ Nov 21 2011, 05:29 PM) *

Try not falling asleep in the first place. If you can just relax sort of like meditation your body will fall asleep but your mind will be aware. If you intend to wake up in your dream enough, you will eventually begin to with more and more success.

This is my only complication is that once i lay down and get relaxed i will always fall asleep and i cannot sit in the lotus position because i have a back problem that causes me a lot of pain even sitting down is painful. I have been trying to wake up but i keep trying every night so hopefully it will work out.

QUOTE(fatherjhon @ Nov 23 2011, 10:57 PM) *

I use something very close to what Vagrant does. I only add breathing methods to it. Breathing as slow as I can, pausing at the max and min until my diaphragm relaxes into a neutral space then I begin again. It has any number of helpful effects but mostly keeps your mind active and alert while your body falls asleep. struggling against unconsciousness seems to pull your consciousness mind into your dreams. I find this starts with visuals -fragments of things I have seen of thought of- and at some point recognizing them as illusions forces them to coalesce into a more complex illusion - a proper dream - which my conscious mind has been pulled into. It sounds more complicated than it really is I assure you.

As a side note that spot on the back of your head is called the Jade Gate, it is a minor chakra that governs a state of mind associated with "open-nesn" and "joy-full discovery". A man by the name of Francois Lepine wrote about it as the chakra that "is a doorway to spiritual realities and the forces behind
all movements." Taoists use the point in dream practices (chigong while you sleep).

Imperial Arts has a very good method also. It reminds me of a similar idea in Tibet where it is said that to be enlightened you must know you are asleep. To this end, they advocate "realizing" that you are awake during the day, then doing something to prove it. Mostly it is on the order of picking something up or altering the environment in some way. It progresses from there, but the intent is to accustom the person to working in a reality that may not be anything like what they are used to. It might also be a good way to practice and build up control as you say. Go about picking things up whenever you realize your awake and when you can move something in your dreams, try then to imagine your surroundings changing when you realize your wake. In your dreams the environment is more malleable than what your used to so just imagining that something is changed will often make it so.

For myself, I find remembering what I did the hardest part of the whole affair. Journals are useful, but I had a very hard time remembering to write down what I dreamed. I found that before you lie down, focusing on you body then your chi and then you mind, with the intent that you will remember your dreams in the morning, helped a lot.


I tried to visualize my 3rd eye chakra opening up and allowing me to access my mind whenever i lay down i also try to in vision my whole body surrounded by and aura and it makes my body start to pulse and tingle when this happens its like i am forced to wake up or move around. Any clue what this could be? And yes you are right it does sound a bit confusing from the way you explained it but your understanding is probably a lot more complex than my own although i am slowly learning. And i appreciate your deep answers to help better my understanding.

This is a good method seems like it would take some more of an understanding would you have any suggestions to where i can learn more about this method? Just for some brain food.

I also find it very hard to remember my dreams i never seem to really dream is my only problem how do you realize that you are dreaming if you do not dream? I also tried the journal for about two weeks and found it very hard to keep up with everything in my dreams it did seem to help recall but anymore i cannot even recall any part of my dream after waking except maybe just a few random occurrences that may have happened in the dream.I will try this method out as well i like to try and experiment with different methods in order to find the best one suited for me. Thank you both for these post i always appreciate any help given.


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fatherjhon
post Nov 25 2011, 09:02 AM
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QUOTE

This is my only complication is that once i lay down and get relaxed i will always fall asleep ... I have been trying to wake up but i keep trying every night so hopefully it will work out.

And yes you are right it does sound a bit confusing from the way you explained it.

I also find it very hard to remember my dreams i never seem to really dream is my only problem how do you realize that you are dreaming if you do not dream?



The point is to relax the body but not the mind. When I started dream work I would make a concoction of strong liquor and stimulating herbs so that I was very relaxed but my mind was still active. I have also heard of people inducing heart burn to insure they do not get too relaxed.

There are often four levels of consciousness cited in Tantric schools. The two that concern dreams are the dreaming and the blackness - Forgive me I have forgotten the proper names. Unless you are dead you have to be in one of the four. While you sleep you are dreaming or you are in the black. The black is the plane of consciousness where we can have no memory due to it being inarticulate to the normal mind so it seems as if we are not experiencing anything. though we are. The dreaming state is slightly higher and involves other parts of your mind that can effectively deal with the strangeness you experience. When we forget our dreams we are either spending too much time in Black or never make it to Dreaming state. Moving from normal consciousness to the black is easy - just fall a sleep - going from the black to dreaming is a struggle. You must activity try to get there. It is often suggested that one look at moving from one state to the other like a dull road. Focus your intent and mind past sleeping as if it was inconsequential. Think only about the dreams. (Concentration by Mouni Sadhu is a very good book on this topic.)

What I was trying to articulate before was that you can try to remember your dreams before you sleep. Trying to visualize every aspect of the a dream you partly remember and the effort will pull you along into that dream.

QUOTE


I tried to visualize my 3rd eye chakra opening up and allowing me to access my mind whenever i lay down i also try to in vision my whole body surrounded by and aura and it makes my body start to pulse and tingle when this happens its like i am forced to wake up or move around. Any clue what this could be?



It sounds like you got shocked back into normal consciousness when you realized something was up with your body. Normal consciousness is for everyday things like your body and the only way to understand the body properly is to use normal consciousness. We also have the most experience with it also, so it is not odd you can switch back to it so fast. Try to training that has you realize your awake, it will help with the shock.


--------------------
Cosmic consciousness is devoid of diversity; yet the universe of diversity exists in notion....
We contemplate that reality in which everything exists, to which everything belongs,
from which everything has emerged, which is the cause of everything and which is everything....
The light of [this] self-knowledge alone illumines all experiences. It shines by its own light.
This inner light appears to be outside and to illumine external objects.

-Sage Vasishtha

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grim789
post Nov 25 2011, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE(fatherjhon @ Nov 25 2011, 10:02 AM) *

The point is to relax the body but not the mind. When I started dream work I would make a concoction of strong liquor and stimulating herbs so that I was very relaxed but my mind was still active. I have also heard of people inducing heart burn to insure they do not get too relaxed.

There are often four levels of consciousness cited in Tantric schools. The two that concern dreams are the dreaming and the blackness - Forgive me I have forgotten the proper names. Unless you are dead you have to be in one of the four. While you sleep you are dreaming or you are in the black. The black is the plane of consciousness where we can have no memory due to it being inarticulate to the normal mind so it seems as if we are not experiencing anything. though we are. The dreaming state is slightly higher and involves other parts of your mind that can effectively deal with the strangeness you experience. When we forget our dreams we are either spending too much time in Black or never make it to Dreaming state. Moving from normal consciousness to the black is easy - just fall a sleep - going from the black to dreaming is a struggle. You must activity try to get there. It is often suggested that one look at moving from one state to the other like a dull road. Focus your intent and mind past sleeping as if it was inconsequential. Think only about the dreams. (Concentration by Mouni Sadhu is a very good book on this topic.)

What I was trying to articulate before was that you can try to remember your dreams before you sleep. Trying to visualize every aspect of the a dream you partly remember and the effort will pull you along into that dream.
It sounds like you got shocked back into normal consciousness when you realized something was up with your body. Normal consciousness is for everyday things like your body and the only way to understand the body properly is to use normal consciousness. We also have the most experience with it also, so it is not odd you can switch back to it so fast. Try to training that has you realize your awake, it will help with the shock.


I will sometimes use herbs in helping me be more calm when i do meditate. The heartburn seems like it would be useful to a skilled probationer as that would be very distracting for me but not a bad idea though.

I know that there is rem sleep maybe that is the name? Its ok though i cant be sure on the names myself either.Would i do this before i sleep concentrate on dreaming so that i will dream? Usually whenever i fall asleep i can be almost asleep but its like i am a tiny bit awake at times but just cant ever wake up in my dream it seems as if i am pulled back into the dark plane. Thank you for the book recommendation i will try and find it i am going to Barnes and Nobles today to look.

Would i visualize a previous dream or just the thought of i will dream whenever i go to practice? Yes it feels like it is pulsing and it tingles this is only when i envision my aura surrounding me. How could i go about training myself to realize i am awake? Sorry to ask so many questions but this is something i am very interested in learning and getting a good knowledge grasp on and all of your post are very helpful.


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fatherjhon
post Nov 25 2011, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE(grim789 @ Nov 25 2011, 12:17 PM) *

Would i visualize a previous dream or just the thought of i will dream whenever i go to practice?

How could i go about training myself to realize i am awake?



You will have to both intend to dream/remember the dream AND try to remember a prior dream while falling asleep.

There is no real trick to realizing your awake or dreaming. When you remember to do so, simply stop whatever you are doing and think "I am awake" then do something to prove it. Move a pen if your like, it really does not mater, so long as you do it because you are wake. At some point you will move on to longer and longer periods of time of awareness. Being aware is key. You must know your mind and be aware of when it changes. Again there is really no trick to this; simply a lot of very careful observation. You should also know just because you do this or any other practice does not mean that you will succeed. It is a practice like running or lifting weights you have to do it for a while trying to get better at it before you are fast or strong.

After a month or two of both practices every night or just about you should have a lucid dream. The longer you practice the more lucidly you will dream. If you want to jump start your practice, try to fall asleep when your not tired - say at noon - and do the practice then as well. Every night and every nap is another chance to practice.


--------------------
Cosmic consciousness is devoid of diversity; yet the universe of diversity exists in notion....
We contemplate that reality in which everything exists, to which everything belongs,
from which everything has emerged, which is the cause of everything and which is everything....
The light of [this] self-knowledge alone illumines all experiences. It shines by its own light.
This inner light appears to be outside and to illumine external objects.

-Sage Vasishtha

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Imperial Arts
post Nov 26 2011, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE(fatherjhon @ Nov 25 2011, 03:18 PM) *

There is no real trick to realizing your awake or dreaming. When you remember to do so, simply stop whatever you are doing and think "I am awake" then do something to prove it. Move a pen if your like, it really does not mater, so long as you do it because you are wake. At some point you will move on to longer and longer periods of time of awareness. Being aware is key. You must know your mind and be aware of when it changes. Again there is really no trick to this; simply a lot of very careful observation.


Try to induce moments of awkward self-consciousness wihout enduring any real social sitigma. You don't need something that will require frequent explanation to others.Yes, a pink mohawk might make you self-conscious, but it will also distract you. Instead consider a wristwatch with the face covered by a piece of tape. When you check the time, you will see the tape and there will be a brief mental "click!"

That "click" signifies a few things.

First, it will draw your inward eye to the dreaming practices. Some part of your mind edits that sort of thing out of memory ordinarily, and doing things to notify your brain that you actually want to keep your dreams will loosen up the editing.

Second, you will realize that, because you have a watch with tape on it, that you are awake. If you take a moment to think about how you might not see a watch at all, or no tape, or something different might be there, you are gearing-up for the experience of dreams and their alternate versions of reality.

The "click" also acts as a cue, so that you have a specific instant wherein you attain awareness, rather than a frustrated and prolonged effort all day long. The watch tape will enter your awareness a few times, and at random, throughout the day. The effect is momentary, but enough to make a spot decision on whether or not you are properly in" your experience sufficiently to assert that it is your experience and that it is genuine.

If you don't wear a watch and keep busy, some other stigma might be used, as long as it is incongruent to normal life and encourages a quick self-conscious reaction. The idea is to provide the dreamer with an originating moment for the intervention of self-awareness which is so often muted in dreams.


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fatherjhon
post Nov 26 2011, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE(Imperial Arts @ Nov 26 2011, 01:48 AM) *

Try to induce moments of awkward self-consciousness wihout enduring any real social sitigma. You don't need something that will require frequent explanation to others.Yes, a pink mohawk might make you self-conscious, but it will also distract you. Instead consider a wristwatch with the face covered by a piece of tape. When you check the time, you will see the tape and there will be a brief mental "click!"


I stand corrected. There is a useful trick for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by fatherjhon: Nov 26 2011, 06:47 PM


--------------------
Cosmic consciousness is devoid of diversity; yet the universe of diversity exists in notion....
We contemplate that reality in which everything exists, to which everything belongs,
from which everything has emerged, which is the cause of everything and which is everything....
The light of [this] self-knowledge alone illumines all experiences. It shines by its own light.
This inner light appears to be outside and to illumine external objects.

-Sage Vasishtha

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☞Tomber☜
post Nov 26 2011, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE(Imperial Arts @ Nov 26 2011, 02:48 AM) *

Try to induce moments of awkward self-consciousness wihout enduring any real social sitigma. You don't need something that will require frequent explanation to others.Yes, a pink mohawk might make you self-conscious, but it will also distract you. Instead consider a wristwatch with the face covered by a piece of tape. When you check the time, you will see the tape and there will be a brief mental "click!"





That's a really good idea. Do you change what you use after a while because you get used to it? Like say you do the watch/tape thing, do you move onto something else after a certain amount of time?


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QUOTE(Vagrant Dreamer @ Jan 30 2013, 02:19 AM) *
Expect nothing, or you will get caught up in the future and not pay attention to the present. Just do the practice diligently, do it because you enjoy it, do it because you believe in it. Don't wait for results, don't wait for it to happen.

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Imperial Arts
post Nov 27 2011, 12:59 AM
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Yes, and you should grow out of it very quickly. Learn it, do it, and move on from there. My course on dreaming should take about a month if done diligently, and the proof of it is the experience of shared dreaming in which two or more people experience the same dream content.

My own opinion is that dream-magic is useless except in that it accomplishes one of two things. The first possibility is divination, or finding out real information through dreaming. This requires some flexibility and control over the content of dreaming, which is engineered first off-site while awake and later on-site while asleep.

The second possibility is the use of dream-like flexibility while awake, which is where the real paydirt can be found. The dream world provides an arcana that germinates entirely within the psyche, rather than being discovered in books and teachings. You might call on gods and devils out of reference to what you have read, and because they are impressive in those presentations, but every night you have a treasure-trove of symbolism and occult teaching freely installed in your dreams.

The strong emotional ties we have to other people, to our goals, to our faith etc, are all represented here and there in dreams. The dream is a set of clockworks we know they are doing something, but we close the watch and hope they continue, their true mechanism remaining unknown. There is a tremendous personal resource in your dream content which is in every way as valid and applicable as that found in the lore of dead or dying cultures which forms the bulk of occult lore.

"Awake from dreaming, and the truth is known. Awake from waking, and the truth is the unknown," says Crowley. Consider a moment how non-lucid your ordinary life is. How much of it just passes by without your notice! Every time you stub your toe, it is the reality of being unaware of your own body and the proximity of your surroundings which calls to you through the pain in your toe.

The progression of the exercise mentioned above, the moment of lucidity, involves creating specific triggers, and finally establishing a universal trigger which can be applied to any purpose however complex.

Dreaming, in a general sense, is a pathway to real magical work that can be done without offending the beliefs or sensibilities of most people, since we all accept the existence of dreams and few are suspicious of activities done through them. The dream chapter of Secrets of Magic was originally the entire book, a simple pamphlet intended to introduce random ordinary people to the idea of doing something interesting with their dreams, and to serve as a guide for free public group exchanges as might be held in libraries or schools.

I have personally experimented with these techniques regularly since childhood, and have refined them over time to a point where I consider them reliable enough to tell other people about them. If nothing else, it will save some people the price of those ridiculous LaBerge lenses.


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grim789
post Nov 27 2011, 10:41 PM
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QUOTE(Imperial Arts @ Nov 26 2011, 01:48 AM) *

Try to induce moments of awkward self-consciousness wihout enduring any real social sitigma. You don't need something that will require frequent explanation to others.Yes, a pink mohawk might make you self-conscious, but it will also distract you. Instead consider a wristwatch with the face covered by a piece of tape. When you check the time, you will see the tape and there will be a brief mental "click!"

That "click" signifies a few things.

First, it will draw your inward eye to the dreaming practices. Some part of your mind edits that sort of thing out of memory ordinarily, and doing things to notify your brain that you actually want to keep your dreams will loosen up the editing.

Second, you will realize that, because you have a watch with tape on it, that you are awake. If you take a moment to think about how you might not see a watch at all, or no tape, or something different might be there, you are gearing-up for the experience of dreams and their alternate versions of reality.

The "click" also acts as a cue, so that you have a specific instant wherein you attain awareness, rather than a frustrated and prolonged effort all day long. The watch tape will enter your awareness a few times, and at random, throughout the day. The effect is momentary, but enough to make a spot decision on whether or not you are properly in" your experience sufficiently to assert that it is your experience and that it is genuine.

If you don't wear a watch and keep busy, some other stigma might be used, as long as it is incongruent to normal life and encourages a quick self-conscious reaction. The idea is to provide the dreamer with an originating moment for the intervention of self-awareness which is so often muted in dreams.



I will be trying this out although i do not were watches as i am allergic to a lot of the metals that are used to make them would you have any other methods of doing this? So just so i know i got the context of what you are saying right when using the watch method with tape while awake the mind sees this and realizes it is odd so whenever your are dreaming and see said watch without the tape or something then the "click" happens in order to alert yourself that you are dreaming? Another question i have is what if i have a dream but the watch never appears how will my mind be alerted then? Or what if i do not dream at all or i am in the blackness stage father john was describing. I also look forward to your course Imperial.


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When the devil cries in agony who then comes to his aide.

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