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 Heaven Vs Hell
Suppose heaven and hell are real:
Do you think that enterance to heaven is based on
state of mind (like trancendance) [ 16 ] ** [34.78%]
purity (as few sins as possible) [ 7 ] ** [15.22%]
accomplishment (as in you've done many good deads) [ 6 ] ** [13.04%]
Something else [ 17 ] ** [36.96%]
Do people then go to hell because:
Of their state of mind [ 12 ] ** [26.67%]
the sins they've commited [ 11 ] ** [24.44%]
they wasted their life [ 5 ] ** [11.11%]
or some other reason [ 17 ] ** [37.78%]
Are heaven and hell eternal states?
Yes, eternal [ 12 ] ** [40.00%]
No, temporary [ 18 ] ** [60.00%]
Do you believe in an after life? (this could be any form ie nirvana, valhalla, hades or the abyss etc
Yes [ 20 ] ** [66.67%]
No [ 1 ] ** [3.33%]
Something different [ 9 ] ** [30.00%]
Do you believe in other realms after death like limbo or purgatory? If yes please explain.
Yes [ 26 ] ** [86.67%]
No [ 4 ] ** [13.33%]
Total Votes: 181
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Acid09
post Jul 19 2007, 05:00 PM
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Ok so suppose that after death there is an after life. What happens? Do people go straight to heaven or hell or some other realm? If thats what you believe then why? What makes a person go to one realm or the other.


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Myroku
post Jul 20 2007, 01:43 AM
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I believe our spirits are eternal for that part of "us " is the divine part of our anatomy (in perspective) and that we will most likely be reborn in a new body OR we will go into other dimensions....

~Myroku

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Acid09
post Jul 20 2007, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE
I believe our spirits are eternal for that part of "us " is the divine part of our anatomy (in perspective) and that we will most likely be reborn in a new body OR we will go into other dimensions....

Would it be illogical to think if the body is reborn that that rebirth is the after life and such a rebirth may occur in alternate realities?

I forgot to stress that what I meant by entrance to heaven or hell is open to interpretation. The christian version of either place is not the only way to see them. THe questions would be better worded if they said 'what do you believe is required to gain enterance into any realm in a supposed afterlife.'

This post has been edited by Acid09: Jul 20 2007, 04:15 PM


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Noxifer_616
post Jul 23 2007, 09:45 PM
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I believe that once the physical body dies the astral body is freed to use up the last amounts of energy (chakra) it had left. Once it uses this it dies as well, I call this the second death. Once this happens, the Higher Concioucness (mental body,other self, HGA, etc.) goes on to be reincarnated, or is merged with the cosmos.

As a psychic vampire, i believe that i posess the ability to prevent the second death by taking minute amounts of energy from others. If the astral body and the Higher BOdy are reincarnated, the magickal knowledge is not forgotten. Peter Carroll described a similiar process called the Dark Rite (i think) wherein the astral body of a dead, yet wise magician can reincarnate and remember the magickal wisdom of his past life, even as a child.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif) Just some food for thought.


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Xenomancer
post Jul 24 2007, 10:11 AM
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I say Heaven and Hell, are just different states of being. They are eternal because they are always there, but WE are not so eternal to be in them for such a time. We are the ones who fall out of it.

My view of afterlife is where one has the option of moving onto the higher states of consciousness, now that it has left the body. It is harder for lower states of existence, for souls in such a state do not believe that their reality gets any better. Thus, they stay in hell eternally, or until some resolution from the outside acts upon the said soul.

tl;dr --- In short, you die with your reality view. That is why it's life that is supposed to be lived to the fullest, and done so with a smile. Because if one is able to deal with all the bs down here and still manage to be happy, of course they can appreciate the realms beyond; it's there too! The only real difference is that you learned in life how to be happy with it all, so you can take an eternity of it. That's what life is about.
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"If ya lived a good life, yer gona love it in dere... if ya lived a bad life, (*hears a scream beyond the door*)"


-Episode of "Are You Afraid of the Dark?"


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-This world is your home. We have a mix of everything here. If you want better, make better. There's no rule of going elsewhere for the tools. That's what magick is about. - Xenomancer

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Myroku
post Jul 31 2007, 09:28 AM
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QUOTE(Acid09 @ Jul 20 2007, 03:11 PM) *
Would it be illogical to think if the body is reborn that that rebirth is the after life and such a rebirth may occur in alternate realities?


your theory to me at least seems probable! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) though i have never heard of one like this i find it really intuiging and cant help but think what if things were or are like that??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused012.gif)

But you also have to think is it more likely that in every alternite reality we are born with the same parents or etc. unless youre talking about something like the movie "the butterfly effect"

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Acid09
post Aug 1 2007, 04:50 PM
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The hindu believe that the human soul can be reincarnated as any living thing. Which makes me wonder how many people end up bacterium in my toilet bowl...

But maybe the soul is an entity that grows and eventually dies and it transititions from one life to the next amung say a family of souls. So in that sense the soul does reincarnate with the same people they knew in this life. Or maybe the group is more extensive and includes ancestors and those our ancestors were close too. So then under the paradigm, what happens when a soul dies, if it actually dies at all? And for that matter how is a soul born?

It seems to me that any after life would have to have an incredibly complex metaphysical nature that some how is either a part of or coexisting with our mundane existance. The few times where I had a near death experience to the point where I was actually unconscious I remembered nothing. I felt nothing I knew nothing I sensed nothing. And yet in hine sight I was able to remember that void of nothing. Which could indicate maybe a sort of concsiousness gone dormant. Maybe only because I really was just unconcsious, close to death but live enough to really experience it. Or maybe what i really experienced was only interpreted by my mind as nothingness because what really happened was just too great for a mortal mind to understand it any other way.


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al_zaine
post Aug 1 2007, 07:16 PM
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I tend to flip back and forth with what is possible after death, and when thinking about it you realise you can imagine some outlandish settings, at one end you could have that fiery pit of molton larva and quenching flames that will burn you for either a long period of 'time' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused012.gif) or eternity. The other end could be that mansion hidden in the clouds where there's beautiful glistening streams and large amounts of precious stones set into the structures where we will be with our families in bliss. I would imagine all this possible in a few ways, either that consiousness that learns from life on earth rests in a setting bulit up over the living period bringing hell or heaven upon oneself or by being judged by an intelligent 'force' on your faith in peace and righteousness or on your sins, though the bible clearly states that you will not enter heaven by what you have done but by faith alone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Symbols_1911.gif)
Sometimes I think that once you've died you will experience no thing at all. Blank. Empty. This I have tried to comprehend, this No-thing.
I might be completely wrong here but I see black/white as 'things', I percieve them. The closest thing I would have to represent what is after dying and my God, would be a crystal ball or very clear water, the crystal is in a shape of a sphere which is a 'thing', it is not the shape but what you see or don't see in this case, the transparancey, the clearness. After death for me is something like that, infinte.
peace
Al.

Can I just add that to percieve is to be aware and to be aware is to be alive.
So whatever you are percieving, once you become aware that you are percieving then you can change your perception.
I pressume this would be done through the 'force' of Will.

This post has been edited by al_zaine: Aug 1 2007, 07:20 PM

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Acid09
post Aug 2 2007, 06:15 PM
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The possibilities are endless. I tend to think that at the point of death the person enters a state of limbo. It is here that some remain as ghosts and just slowly wither back into the great beyond unable to move past their previous mortal incarnation. It is possible these ghosts are sharing their realm with other entites as well. It is also possible we as the living can transition from our realm to another through magick and altered states of mind. I would speculate that a ghost must feed of energy to sustain itself, much as Noxifir stated and that it is possible for such a ghost to create their own after life based on their previous life and the amount of awareness they abtained. While I think this is possible I don't think such a place could exist for ever. Eventually a soul returns to its source and is born again.

I think if there is an after life beyond a state of limbo what it really is is just a new life. After a person enters limbo (or purgatory or what ever name you fancy) they eventually come to a point where they let go of their mortal attachments and accend into a new life. One that can be reborn in any time and any place, possibly even in any reality or even an other world.

Heaven and Hell are really just extremes used to described the quality of life one endures. I think ultimately a heavenly or hellish life depends on how one percieves it. One can to an extent control the quality of their own life and in essence live a heavenly life. Like wise they may loose all control and hope and peter out into a life of misery and hell. Most tend to make their lives somewhere in the middle.


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paxx
post Sep 21 2007, 03:05 AM
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Fun to contemplate.

Currently I fall for a Jewish concept with my own flavor. I believe we are all thumb drives of the divine. We have some base programming with goals of experience, sometimes we are used to intervene in someone else’s life, just as others are called to intervene on our behalf.

As for the after-life if we accomplish our goals we move on to another state, dropping off 99.9999% of our selves and even most of our “programming”. All I can say is the goal is to accumulate experience and observe the divine from all perspectives. In doing this our individual goals may be to be the leader of a nation that destroys the world as we know it, then spends what seems like eternity in hell in that persona then gets another turn at the wheel.
Another possibility does the same and spends what seems like eternity with 70 virgins and 2 porn stars (72 virgins being too boring to be heaven showing lack of imagination of the time). And then gets another turn.
And another does the same and the thumb drive gets totally uploaded into the collective divine “GOD” never to be used or separated again.

This all comes from the perspective that the ultimate source cannot observe itself, thus it creates entities that can at many different level, and over time those same tools create new tools giving as random results as possible.

I believe the human experience is unique. But not special. I believe that humanity some how (out of greed) was able to allow for incredible diversity, while at the same time learned how to destroy itself and all others, yet so far has managed to not do it. a lot of this is by chance (or divine intervention) but it happened.

I think that in most other worlds, a dominant race would have eradicated all others as a defense mechanism if possible, I believe we have the Greek Philosophers to thank for that. Because prior to them, nations rarely allowed self rule with proxy. They enslaved other nations until rebellion.
That not to say that the Greeks did not; just that Greek Philosophy and thought allowed for the change in thinking.
So we maintained an evolving culture through diversity with some steps backwards…but if we had not we would all be speaking Latin or the next Genghis Kahn’s language after the Romans.

But no it was shown to be more profitable to allow other countries to self rule as they had then to take over. The USA takes that to an awesome step with Globalization of the economy…however Sun Tzu already mentions economic tactics in The art of War, it is in everyone’s interest to keep the US economy afloat even when the US is clearly making mistakes.

However off topic it seems, I am just explaining that our experience is probably unique in that even sufficiently advanced empires have not crushed other states for perceived self preservation. As such, we probably have more concepts of “The Devine” then other populations of our size and age. Thus, we are of excellent value in this theory of why we are here.

This post has been edited by paxx: Sep 21 2007, 03:08 AM


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shamanwizard
post Jul 4 2008, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE(paxx @ Sep 21 2007, 05:05 AM) *
Fun to contemplate.

Currently I fall for a Jewish concept with my own flavor. I believe we are all thumb drives of the divine. We have some base programming with goals of experience, sometimes we are used to intervene in someone else’s life, just as others are called to intervene on our behalf.

As for the after-life if we accomplish our goals we move on to another state, dropping off 99.9999% of our selves and even most of our “programming”. All I can say is the goal is to accumulate experience and observe the divine from all perspectives. In doing this our individual goals may be to be the leader of a nation that destroys the world as we know it, then spends what seems like eternity in hell in that persona then gets another turn at the wheel.
Another possibility does the same and spends what seems like eternity with 70 virgins and 2 porn stars (72 virgins being too boring to be heaven showing lack of imagination of the time). And then gets another turn.
And another does the same and the thumb drive gets totally uploaded into the collective divine “GOD” never to be used or separated again.

This all comes from the perspective that the ultimate source cannot observe itself, thus it creates entities that can at many different level, and over time those same tools create new tools giving as random results as possible.

I believe the human experience is unique. But not special. I believe that humanity some how (out of greed) was able to allow for incredible diversity, while at the same time learned how to destroy itself and all others, yet so far has managed to not do it. a lot of this is by chance (or divine intervention) but it happened.

I think that in most other worlds, a dominant race would have eradicated all others as a defense mechanism if possible, I believe we have the Greek Philosophers to thank for that. Because prior to them, nations rarely allowed self rule with proxy. They enslaved other nations until rebellion.
That not to say that the Greeks did not; just that Greek Philosophy and thought allowed for the change in thinking.
So we maintained an evolving culture through diversity with some steps backwards…but if we had not we would all be speaking Latin or the next Genghis Kahn’s language after the Romans.

But no it was shown to be more profitable to allow other countries to self rule as they had then to take over. The USA takes that to an awesome step with Globalization of the economy…however Sun Tzu already mentions economic tactics in The art of War, it is in everyone’s interest to keep the US economy afloat even when the US is clearly making mistakes.

However off topic it seems, I am just explaining that our experience is probably unique in that even sufficiently advanced empires have not crushed other states for perceived self preservation. As such, we probably have more concepts of “The Devine” then other populations of our size and age. Thus, we are of excellent value in this theory of why we are here.

"Another possibility does the same and spends what seems like eternity with 70 virgins and 2 porn stars (72 virgins being too boring to be heaven showing lack of imagination of the time). And then gets another turn. " I love that, jajajaja, holy cow now there is a pleasurable heaven, but then how does it work for women, or do you have the old muslim believe that women dont go to heaven (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)


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eternal ginja
post Sep 18 2008, 04:51 PM
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just as we have direct affect on how we live we have affect on how we die. cyclical as all is it makes sense at least to me. just like you choose what you eat, how poor you are, what car you drive, etc. you choose what happens when you die.

maybe you want to be with the cosmos for a while so you become a star.

or you want to be a god that helps or messes with people.

maybe a guardian angel, or a shoulder demon.

maybe you go to heaven that is created by the masses who believe in that sorta thing, or maybe hell cuz you feel too bad about your life or are just afraid of death too much.

its your choice.

hope it makes sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dots.gif)


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