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 The Rose Cross, A method for sigilization
azareth
post Apr 5 2009, 01:05 PM
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The golden developed a vey nice and effective way for drawing sigils,that is the rose cross,many magicians used this method with success,I keep a copy in my grimoire,there is not much to say actually about it so i will just insert the rose cross:
(IMG:http://www.wisdomsdoor.com/wb/images/hwb-sigil-2.gif)


simply trace the word you want to sigilize with a pencil drawing a small horizontal line in the beginning of the sigil and a small circle at the end.

Charge the sigil and good luck.


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azareth
post Apr 8 2009, 05:08 PM
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(IMG:http://www.wisdomsdoor.com/wb/images/hwb-sigil-3.gif)


How to trace a sigil.

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Imperial Arts
post Apr 8 2009, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE(azareth @ Apr 8 2009, 04:08 PM) *


The sigil you've traced is M-A-L-K-U-T-H.

The 22 petals of the Rose are usually given the 22 Hebrew letters, and in Hebrew the word is spelled M-L-K-U-Th.

The Rose itself is part of the larger Golden Dawn system, where it is considered the "heart of the adept." Outside of the context of that system, doesn't the rose (or a sigil drawn from it) seem somewhat arbitrary in design?

You have this one sigil, tracing the hebrew word spelled correctly gives another sigil entirely. Why not use some random squiggly line? What, in your opinion, makes these sigils valid? What would make them less valid?


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azareth
post Apr 9 2009, 02:15 PM
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What, in your opinion, makes these sigils valid? What would make them less valid?

What makes it valid is its ability to connect directly to the suconscious mind ,also,the simplicity of the sigil seem to have an effect ,also the energy you charge it with,,yet in sigilization ther seems to be no absolute rules.. sigilization is practices intensively by commercial company logos,the sigils must provoke something within you,

True the rose cross is written in hebrew,yet not many speak it ,so i posted the english version,the images are found by google,i have a hand made rose cross in my grimoire,which i use to draw sigils of archangels,God names,spheres on the tree of life including malkuth,sometimes i create sigils with no sigilization method whatsoever,just what my hand writes,free sigils seem to work well,yet for some magickal tasks i find it appropriate to use the rose cross,or Nordic Runes.

In our collective consciousness some sigils hold great power,for example the Goetic sigils or seals,the enochian alphabet,heiroglyphs.
just as there are somewords that hold great power,Abrahadabra is an example.God names.


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Imperial Arts
post Apr 10 2009, 12:59 AM
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The Golden Dawn tradition uses a consecration ritual for the Rose, presumably so that it will become established in the subconscious. The ritual formalizes the relationship between the media (the Rose, and sigils drawn from it) and their intended outcomes by making an overt gesture of how the various parts of the emblem relate to the things they are supposed to influence.

You appear to be suggesting that the Rose, or its sigils, have some inherent "ability to connect directly to the subconscious mind," without any prior installation of the symbols.

If the Rose and its sigils are effective without the initial consecrations, what makes them more effective than (for example) any simple line-pattern derived from a random jumble of shapes and letters?

If these are no more valid than said random patterns, why use the Rose at all?

You mention having used Runes and "free sigils." How would you compare these, in terms of process or result, to those from the Rose?


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Mchawi
post Apr 11 2009, 08:55 AM
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Not quite there yet so excuse me commenting but a sigil drawn with the rose cross (from what I can tell) stays the same and so keeps within the G.D current. In that way I guess there is no ''randomization'' as, 'Malkuth' spelt, 'Malkuth' with the device will come up the same no matter who draws it.... would obviously suit for a particular order or strain of Magick to have a system for sigilization that not only stays in line with a cultural current but can be used and interpreted by anyone of that group. The sigils are 'precharged' through their populatiry in that regard.

As said I'm speaking in ignorance here as none of this is part of my grade work as of yet, excuse me if I'm not making sence. .lol.

Peace
.M.

This post has been edited by Mchawi: Apr 11 2009, 08:57 AM

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esoterica
post Apr 11 2009, 09:20 AM
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so then what is the base object onto which this sigil is drawn?
(IMG:http://www.dreaminggates.com/j-necro.jpg) - www.dreaminggates.com

perhaps we will hear from the quiet ones? - i still love you guys, and yes i keep my bull's eye handy :wink:
(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Cuneiform_sumer_dingir.svg/100px-Cuneiform_sumer_dingir.svg.png)
and yes i still plan to honor ishtar, the still-favorite consort, on her sacrament day of easter, eosater, ishtara, the tie-point) with yet another telepathic sexfest in the thickly forested lower 40 of my lower astral temple - as usual marked by the blood-red heartlight - gift of flowers - same guards, tantric capture, use, and agreement with my associated witches determining the whole of its use given by your showing up - more later

This post has been edited by esoterica: Apr 11 2009, 09:43 AM


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Aphrodite
post Apr 11 2009, 09:56 AM
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QUOTE(Imperial Arts @ Apr 10 2009, 02:59 AM) *

The Golden Dawn tradition uses a consecration ritual for the Rose, presumably so that it will become established in the subconscious. The ritual formalizes the relationship between the media (the Rose, and sigils drawn from it) and their intended outcomes by making an overt gesture of how the various parts of the emblem relate to the things they are supposed to influence.

You appear to be suggesting that the Rose, or its sigils, have some inherent "ability to connect directly to the subconscious mind," without any prior installation of the symbols.

If the Rose and its sigils are effective without the initial consecrations, what makes them more effective than (for example) any simple line-pattern derived from a random jumble of shapes and letters?

If these are no more valid than said random patterns, why use the Rose at all?

You mention having used Runes and "free sigils." How would you compare these, in terms of process or result, to those from the Rose?



If many people use this system, then the sigil made by the rose cross becomes like a genuine sigil of the spirit. Kind of like if many people call a man named James, Hank, then Hank becomes associated as the man actually named James.

Now if you use some random squiggly lines with no intent/meaning then it’ll get you no where fast.

So if I had to choose between making a sigil via the rose cross or random squiggles I’ll choose the rose cross (not when creating servitors).

I dunno, I’m just theorizing really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

Also esoterica, I have no idea who this sigil was created for. Ishtar? If so, maybe the person was sent “visions” by Ishtar on what her sigil was to be created as, or they made it up for profit.

I don’t think sigils matter that much, mainly just a mental aid.

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azareth
post Apr 11 2009, 01:21 PM
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"The Golden Dawn tradition uses a consecration ritual for the Rose, presumably so that it will become established in the subconscious. The ritual formalizes the relationship between the media (the Rose, and sigils drawn from it) and their intended outcomes by making an overt gesture of how the various parts of the emblem relate to the things they are supposed to influence.

You appear to be suggesting that the Rose, or its sigils, have some inherent "ability to connect directly to the subconscious mind," without any prior installation of the symbols.
If the Rose and its sigils are effective without the initial consecrations, what makes them more effective than (for example) any simple line-pattern derived from a random jumble of shapes and letters?

If these are no more valid than said random patterns, why use the Rose at all?

You mention having used Runes and "free sigils." How would you compare these, in terms of process or result, to those from the Rose? "


Well i would use the rose in some universal aspects,because:
The more people who believe in some sigil the more power it has,the truth is the magickal concept takes more power from the believe of the people.same with sigils,if a sigil is known by many it will have much energy than another sigil that is created and discarded by an individual,yet there are no rules that are ultimate,some random sigils may have a great power of its own,Its your believe in its strength that makes it stronger,yet,I believe that the success of the magickal work is based mainly on the energy you put in it i.e (charge) ,i have had good results with the rose cross,and also other forms of sigilizations,for example you draw your intent for example if you make a sigil for wealth you choose the Dollar symbol $ then you erase some lines and simplify it as possible,other method is to write your intent,then erase the repeated letters,till you get a word or two,charge it and do your spell,I also use free sigilization,I draw random lines which hold psychological relation to my intent.

There are many methods,I use them all,some method work well for some kind of spell,some method dont ,but they work pretty well in some other kind of spell.


" so then what is the base object onto which this sigil is drawn?"
The base object for this necronomicon sigils seems to be drawn using the same method,as it appears from the circle in one end the line in another,but it doesnt seem to follow any letters or words of some sort,insted it is based on a pentagram and another sigil over it.
I dont know actually the method which the sigil was drawn yet,all magick is based on a set of rules,and there is a countless variations made from the original rules.










"Also esoterica, I have no idea who this sigil was created for. Ishtar? If so, maybe the person was sent “visions” by Ishtar on what her sigil was to be created as, or they made it up for profit.

I don’t think sigils matter that much, mainly just a mental aid."


The sigil is the sigil of the necronomicon,the sigil of ishtar is actually a star that looks thus(IMG:http://www.freewebs.com/satansgraphix/Babylon%20star%20disc%20of%20Ishtar.jpg)

Ishtar is also known in other traditions as astaroth,astarte.

Peace and love to all.


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Aphrodite
post Apr 11 2009, 04:49 PM
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I like your analogy of the dollar sign, its used a lot in hoodoo as a sigil for money.

So that’s the sigil for Ishtar. I had a very bad experience invoking and evoking her, but it seems I wasn’t using the right sigil. LOL.

Ishtar is basically a love goddess, related to Venus right?

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Imperial Arts
post Apr 11 2009, 07:07 PM
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I would assert that belief in one's magic has nothing to do with its effectiveness. What you believe works, may not work. A million people believing in a particular sigil will not add to its effectiveness for you or for them. If others disbelieve, or do not know your sigils, it will not hinder you.

Crowley writes, "Doubt! Doubt all! Doubt even that thou doubtest all!"

More people are familiar with the standard typrewriter keypad than the Rose Cross, and depend on it daily for business and self-expression. Its use has transformed the globe. Yet to trace the word "Kingdom" on the keyboard, and call that a magical sigil, is IMO nonsense. Given that the keyboard is obviously the more influential arrangement of the two, what makes the Rose Cross more potent magically?

Please feel free to spare me basic principles of sigil magic. How well do you feel you understand this subject and how much depth of thought can you put toward it?

The Golden Dawn initiates were given years of indoctrination with the rituals and insignia of their order. The Rose Cross was finally displayed to a select few after having undergone all of the preparatory rituals, particularly the sealing of the Vault of Adepts and the consecrations of the Rose itself. It was apparently something they took very seriously. Here you seem to be suggesting that anyone could just pick up a copy online, draw any word they please, and begin casting spells right off the bat. Can you see the difference between this and the Golden Dawn approach? This gives rise to speculation on the nature of the Rose, its sigils, and its use.

In the Golden Dawn, considerable effort is put toward embedding the Rose in the spiritual body of the magician. It becomes his "heart," to use their metaphor. The intensive process of developing the Rose inwardly before use is what separates it from a randomly-generated or meaningless set of letters in concentric rings. It is not merely a convenient pattern from which one can derive line shapes. This can be done with it, but is that its best use? I say not: perhaps it would be better left to its proper context and personal sigils (if any) be used instead.

I would like to hear about your experiences, in as much detail as possible, in regard to the use of the Rose. I would also be interested in seeing the same information in regard to a few other sigils or spells, and your evaluation of the results.

Ishtar is probably Astarte, but these are probably not Astaroth, incidentally. Both names appear in the Bible in a few places, their spellings are very different and their attributes as well. Astaroth is probably the older of the two, being referenced also among Egyptian deity records of the 18th dynasty, and should not be confused with Asherah with which it is also commonly identified.


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Aphrodite
post Apr 11 2009, 09:04 PM
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I think I understand the typewriter/rose cross analogy.

“Yet to trace the word "Kingdom" on the keyboard, and call that a magical sigil, is IMO nonsense. Given that the keyboard is obviously the more influential arrangement of the two, what makes the Rose Cross more potent magically?”

It doesn’t really, I just think your more likely to contact the right spirit using a genuine sigil, and my theory was since many people use the rose cross to create a sigil, it becomes associated with the spirit and possibly a genuine sigil of the spirit.

But, what does belief have to do with a sigil anyways? If you (no one in particular) believe that spirits are self aware entities and or have any knowledge about ceremonial magic you may have heard of the concept that sigils represent the spirits like a name almost. For example, when you evoke a spirit, having them show you their sigil is a way to verify that you are actually communicating with that said spirit. So if many people use a rose cross sigil, for example the sigil of Hagiel, the very popular intelligence of Venus, the sigil becomes like a genuine name/sigil.

This is just my theory, I just wanted to clarify it.

So basically the rose cross is a way GD members choose to create sigils and or isn’t necessarily more effective than personal techniques. My new question from this is. . .

Hypothesis: Would using a genuine/know sigil associated with a spirit work more effectively than random squiggles and or an original sigil made with intent. . . .

I’ll test this out.

“Crowley writes, "Doubt! Doubt all! Doubt even that thou doubtest all!"

Sounds exactly what I’d think a heroin addict would sound. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

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esoterica
post Apr 12 2009, 08:45 AM
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>>"Doubt! Doubt all! Doubt even that thou doubtest all!"

flip it over

interesting ishtar symbol, thanks, reminds me of her flower'd blood-red gate

remember there is a telepathic love-fest tonite a 6pm cst, in her honor - best thing about doing it telepathically is the eggs found don't get impregnated


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Imperial Arts
post Apr 12 2009, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE(Aphrodite @ Apr 11 2009, 08:04 PM) *

my theory was since many people use the rose cross to create a sigil, it becomes associated with the spirit and possibly a genuine sigil of the spirit.

So if many people use a rose cross sigil, for example the sigil of Hagiel, the very popular intelligence of Venus, the sigil becomes like a genuine name/sigil.

“Crowley writes, "Doubt! Doubt all! Doubt even that thou doubtest all!"
Sounds exactly what I’d think a heroin addict would sound. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


I am not a fan of the piggyback theory of magical names and symbols. How many people are required before the unorthodox sigil becomes valid?

The entire principle of "more people believing lends validity" is faddish popular metaphysics and totally absent in occult lore of any age and culture.

In your example of Hagiel, the sigil is usually taken from the Kamea of Venus. This, and a sigil from the Rose, would be substantially different if drawn from English than from Hebrew. Assuming you have these two sources and two languages, you have four possible sigils. Which is better to use?

Hagiel is a spirit, presumed to possess intelligence that one could contact. Could the same be said of Malkuth?

The development of magical words and symbols is an individual work, IMO, wherein the participation of others is irrelevant. In the case of the Rose, the structure of the sigils is developed by long and careful work, and the magician is formally introduced ("initiated") into the process whereby the spirits or powers become entwined with the sigils for him or herself. The fact that one has a sigil drawn from the Rose doesn't make it any more meaningful than a sigil drawn from a typewriter key pattern. It is the consecration of the Rose that gives its sigils their potency, and that consecration is part of a larger system in which you and I have no part.

Crowley's heroin use did not begin until several years after that quote was written.


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azareth
post Apr 12 2009, 01:02 PM
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Imperial arts :
"would assert that belief in one's magic has nothing to do with its effectiveness. What you believe works, may not work. A million people believing in a particular sigil will not add to its effectiveness for you or for them. If others disbelieve, or do not know your sigils, it will not hinder you. "

Well my opinion in this matter is probably partially based on carl Jung theory about collective consciousness,people believe does make a difference,i will give an example,rather a silly one,If many generations taught their children to fear the bathrom sewer! the bathroom sewer will have a sinister energy around it through thousands of years and paranormal events are more likely to occur,regarding the method of creating an effective servitor using your vital energy,the same is applicable for sigilization. Remember energy cannot be destroyed but changes from one form to another.


"Crowley writes, "Doubt! Doubt all! Doubt even that thou doubtest all!" "

he always writes "I slept with faith and found a corpse in my arms on awakening; I drank and danced all night with doubt and found her a virgin in the morning."

No doubt that doubt is useful in a research phase ,but to Doubt everything is to strip everything from sacred value.which is undoubtly a destructive behavior,the Key is" Doubt till you believe"


"More people are familiar with the standard typrewriter keypad than the Rose Cross, and depend on it daily for business and self-expression. Its use has transformed the globe. Yet to trace the word "Kingdom" on the keyboard, and call that a magical sigil, is IMO nonsense. Given that the keyboard is obviously the more influential arrangement of the two, what makes the Rose Cross more potent magically? "

No one regarded the typewriter as a magickal agent,people think of the typewriter to be an instrument ,without any magickal powers whatsoever people nor aproach it with respect or fear,universal magickal methods are somewhat different they are approached with respect and knowledge of their powers that's why they hold such collective energy.


"Please feel free to spare me basic principles of sigil magic. How well do you feel you understand this subject and how much depth of thought can you put toward it?"

A sigil is any object that has been magickally charged with power in order to perform a certain function. It is a magickal sigil in physical form that can perhaps be carried or worn in order for its sphere of influence to be readily felt. sigils have been used from since before the beginnings of recorded history when Paleolithic wo/man drew and painted images on cave walls and carve figures out of stone to represent the hunt, birth, death, and beyond,On one level, sigils can be seen as “store-houses” of power.
it is important to keep things simple. The more elaborate the sigil the less likely that you will be able to concentrate on it with enough focus to direct the power.





"The Golden Dawn initiates were given years of indoctrination with the rituals and insignia of their order. The Rose Cross was finally displayed to a select few after having undergone all of the preparatory rituals, particularly the sealing of the Vault of Adepts and the consecrations of the Rose itself. It was apparently something they took very seriously. Here you seem to be suggesting that anyone could just pick up a copy online, draw any word they please, and begin casting spells right off the bat. Can you see the difference between this and the Golden Dawn approach? This gives rise to speculation on the nature of the Rose, its sigils, and its use."

I am not a GD adept although i have lived,travelled with golden dawn adepts. i might use some of their methods,my friend ,I am a free person with a free mind i totally believe the phrase "to define is to limit" ,I would not be confined to any belief sytem totally(perhaps with the exception of the cult of Osiris),I would rather Use methods from Thelema,GD,OTO, without being a thelemite,a golden dawn adept.
I respect all sytems,but my approach is more to Chaos magick,although i am not a chaos magician.


"
In the Golden Dawn, considerable effort is put toward embedding the Rose in the spiritual body of the magician. It becomes his "heart," to use their metaphor. The intensive process of developing the Rose inwardly before use is what separates it from a randomly-generated or meaningless set of letters in concentric rings. It is not merely a convenient pattern from which one can derive line shapes. This can be done with it, but is that its best use? I say not: perhaps it would be better left to its proper context and personal sigils (if any) be used instead. "

I am familiar with the ritual,but tell me what's your definition of a genuine sigil..?how to make it effective for magickal work.?
I am curious .


"would like to hear about your experiences, in as much detail as possible, in regard to the use of the Rose. I would also be interested in seeing the same information in regard to a few other sigils or spells, and your evaluation of the results. "

Well I have everything recorded in my grimoire with time,date,moon phase,planetary and zodiac correspodancy,all other things like ,weather,air pressure,my physical and psychological state,thoughts,feelings that occur before and after the working, ,you are mostly welcome to ask me about any specific details of my limited experiences,just like any practicioner I had experiences that were very succesful in talismanic magick,other failed,My evaluation of the results is based on results,I have no prejudice about anything whatsoever,If you believe an onion sings at midnight,I will not tell you this is nonsense,but bring over the onion at midnight and lets see...!!
that's my approach to magick,If a working or method is successful the results will show.

I have drawn sigils that were as useless magickaly as a stop sign,others had tremendous powers that seemed to have a life of its own,there are no absoulute rules,what I can say confidently is that "I dont know".


Ishtar is probably Astarte, but these are probably not Astaroth, incidentally. Both names appear in the Bible in a few places, their spellings are very different and their attributes as well. Astaroth is probably the older of the two, being referenced also among Egyptian deity records of the 18th dynasty, and should not be confused with Asherah with which it is also commonly identified. "

Ishtar is a babylonian Goddess, different names are present for the same thing in different cultures,Who is who or which is which,well if you have doubts about a deity,Research it,Invoke it and ask it,as Dee and Kelly used the method of invoking the angel and letting the angel itself assist you with the rest.
yet the same answer applies "I dont know".

and Aphrodite :
"But, what does belief have to do with a sigil anyways? If you (no one in particular) believe that spirits are self aware entities and or have any knowledge about ceremonial magic you may have heard of the concept that sigils represent the spirits like a name almost. For example, when you evoke a spirit, having them show you their sigil is a way to verify that you are actually communicating with that said spirit. So if many people use a rose cross sigil, for example the sigil of Hagiel, the very popular intelligence of Venus, the sigil becomes like a genuine name/sigil. "

This reminds me of Dee and kelly's experiments with enochian magick,they were given a false sigil by an intruding spirit,spirits are self aware entities,but with more raw power,yet spirits are like humans some are wise and powerful some are absolute idiots,the sigil you create can be viewed by the spirit as a name for it,some spirits take the sigil as a method for calling it that is associated with the practitioner him/herself, like an email address or IP for example.


Esoterica :

"
>>"Doubt! Doubt all! Doubt even that thou doubtest all!"

flip it over

interesting ishtar symbol, thanks, reminds me of her flower'd blood-red gate

remember there is a telepathic love-fest tonite a 6pm cst, in her honor - best thing about doing it telepathically is the eggs found don't get impregnated"

My pleasure,I will check the time,will be glad to participate.


Thank you all for your replies,

Peace and love.









































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Aphrodite
post Apr 12 2009, 03:24 PM
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“This reminds me of Dee and kelly's experiments with enochian magick,they were given a false sigil by an intruding spirit,spirits are self aware entities,but with more raw power,yet spirits are like humans some are wise and powerful some are absolute idiots,the sigil you create can be viewed by the spirit as a name for it,some spirits take the sigil as a method for calling it that is associated with the practitioner him/herself, like an email address or IP for example.”

So your saying using a “genuine” sigil vs. an original one, would still work equally well, because spirits will basically come when called. I agree with that concept, because hoodoo practitioners can call on Michael, using no sigils and achieve their request just as well as a person using one of his “genuine” sigils.

“Hagiel is a spirit, presumed to possess intelligence that one could contact. Could the same be said of Malkuth?”

I don’t believe Malkuth is a self aware entity, but I have knowledge in qaballah.

“wherein the participation of others is irrelevant.”

You’ve fail to notice the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/doh.gif)

“In the case of the Rose, the structure of the sigils is developed by long and careful work, and the magician is formally introduced ("initiated") into the process whereby the spirits or powers become entwined with the sigils for him or herself.”

This would also be the case for the type writer as well.

“It is the consecration of the Rose that gives its sigils their potency, and that consecration is part of a larger system in which you and I have no part.”

Consecration is basically declaring out loud that the Rose Cross is sacred, which is redundant since one already has that sense when taking the time to use it versus random squiggles or a type writer. So consecrating a type writer would make it equal to the Rose Cross, I don’t know about the “larger system” theory, but somehow I have no part in it anyways.

“No doubt that doubt is useful in a research phase ,but to Doubt everything is to strip everything from sacred value.which is undoubtly a destructive behavior,the Key is" Doubt till you believe"

I agree

It just irritates me when know-it-all occultist throw up Crowley quotes like that proves/validates their argument/authority in the subject or something. Its immature and redundant. Sorry but every sec I’m seeing noobs do this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif)



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Imperial Arts
post Apr 12 2009, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE(Aphrodite @ Apr 12 2009, 02:24 PM) *


I don’t believe Malkuth is a self aware entity, but I have knowledge in qaballah.

So consecrating a type writer would make it equal to the Rose Cross, I don’t know about the “larger system” theory, but somehow I have no part in it anyways.

It just irritates me when know-it-all occultist throw up Crowley quotes like that proves/validates their argument/authority in the subject or something. Its immature and redundant. Sorry but every sec I’m seeing noobs do this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif)


Malkuth is "the Kingdom," usually identified with the materials components of the world: time, space, matter, and energy through which spirit (the higher spheres) operates.

The Rose is a symbol taken from the larger Golden Dawn system, and its power in part is a result of long developing work in that system. Since none of us in this conversation are Golden Dawn adepts, we don't have any business using their symbols, especially if others are just as effective and relatively easy to produce.

The Rose is magical on account of the work put into it by the initiate, not out of respect for its use by other initiates or out of any convenience it offers in producing obscure patterns.

I hope you will understand that I'm not a "noob," and perhaps realize that I do have a large amount of knowledge on occult subjects from learning and practice. If that makes me a "know it all," so be it. Whatever may be said against Crowley on account of his personal life, his knowledge and competence in the occult ought to be obvious. Nowhere in his enormous body of work does he ever suggest that group belief lends validity to sigils, or that disbelief would rob them of their power. Carl Jung was not a magician.

Azareth, I have seen many people take your "free for all" approach and have found them (more often than not) mistaking lack of discipline for lack of definition. You say you've had success. Great! Can you tell us some more about your methods, the aims, and the results? Your previous response on this matter left much to be desired, lacking all the details that were requested.


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Aphrodite
post Apr 12 2009, 05:16 PM
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I agree that using the rose cross with out inherent knowledge on it isn’t best compared to using a system original and sacred to myself. I actually think the typewriter is a neat idea.

I don’t think you’re a noob, it just irritates me because people throw out quotes willy nilly and I’m use to teenage know-it-alls throwing out Nietzsche and Crowley quotes cause its cool and “sophisticated” sounding, its just silly to me.

Crowley on account of his personal life, his knowledge and competence in the occult ought to be obvious. Nowhere in his enormous body of work does he ever suggest that group belief lends validity to sigils, or that disbelief would rob them of their power. Carl Jung was not a magician.

Well going by the quote you threw up I should “doubt” it all including Crowley‘s enormous body of work. You still lack understanding though. Also Crowley isn’t the only magician out there.

“Carl Jung was not a magician.”

A lot of people combine psychology and philosophy with their occult practice (for example, the idea that spirits are a product of one‘s ego). People are reinventing and experimenting with occult practices and beliefs instead of sitting back and excepting Crowley’s work as the ultimate truth. Remember to doubt.

“Azareth, I have seen many people take your "free for all" approach and have found them (more often than not) mistaking lack of discipline for lack of definition. You say you've had success. Great! Can you tell us some more about your methods, the aims, and the results? Your previous response on this matter left much to be desired, lacking all the details that were requested.”

Not to be a kiss a$$ but Azareth, based on his post has displayed a decent amount of knowledge on the occult. I didn’t get the impression “free for all”, he just has an opened mind vs. stubborn skeptical contempt.

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Mchawi
post Apr 13 2009, 06:29 AM
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Yeesh, don't let this turn into an argument. Imperial Arts is a knowledgeable occultist I'm sure .lol. People are always going to have diffrent views and opinions on things its why Magick is personal in the first place.

Not to join an argument but the discussion.... the keyboard has no qualities given it, even then if one were to form a system, ''computer magick'' using the keyboard as a tool for generating sigils (with spititual attributes given to common patterns) I'm sure it would work. Granted the Rose Cross needs to be intergrated into ones self after various rites and rituals in the G.D but that shouldn't/dosen't prevent it from being used as a tool for generating workable sigils and I'm sure that with its continued use it would prove itself to be ''just as'' effective as it would be if it were consecrated and used by someone who has been through the system.

Other than that I've lost focus of the topic and can't see where the debate has turned from being one about the R.C in general to it not being effective for those outside of the G.D current... which, if true, can be said of all too many borrowed concepts within said strain of practice.

Crowley was a great guy, although I'm not sure how enlightened he was his contribution to western occultism can't be over looked, at all, he had a lot to say and a better way of putting things than most. Carl Jung was an ''alchemist'' a magician if one were to go by Crowleys interpretation of it, change according with will, couldn't ask for a better description of psycological processes and non medical treatment if you ask me.

Peace
.M.

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azareth
post Apr 13 2009, 04:29 PM
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we don't have any business using their symbols, especially if others are just as effective and relatively easy to produce.

well i actually use their symbols,and i will continue to do so,I think your question may be.. can we use certain methods out of their system of practice..?
my own opinion is yes we can.

Carl jung was a magician or not,its not important, according to this ,you might be saying that we will dismiss the research done by scientists who study paranormal because they are not occultists.


“Azareth, I have seen many people take your "free for all" approach and have found them (more often than not) mistaking lack of discipline for lack of definition. You say you've had success. Great! Can you tell us some more about your methods, the aims, and the results? Your previous response on this matter left much to be desired, lacking all the details that were requested.”

Well . you have the right to believe what you want,and i have a right to believe you are wrong,discipline is an essential part of my practice,i can say without exaggeration that I had disciplines very few people would endure,my experiences,well its much to be said,some of it will remain a secret for good reasons,others i would be glad to tell if you are genuinely interested, I will not comment on any skepticism and sarcasm because,I am not here to make enemies,but rather Learn and enrich my practice.


I hope you will understand that I'm not a "noob," and perhaps realize that I do have a large amount of knowledge on occult subjects from learning and practice. If that makes me a "know it all," so be it. Whatever may be said against Crowley on account of his personal life, his knowledge and competence in the occult ought to be obvious. Nowhere in his enormous body of work does he ever suggest that group belief lends validity to sigils, or that disbelief would rob them of their power. Carl Jung was not a magician.

Regarding A.crowley,i think he is respect worthy,being a sex and drug addict is none of my business,my business is his knowledge of the occult,
I don't think you are a noob,and i am glad that you have a large amount of knowledge,which is good for you,BUT If you think you know it all you are mistaken, even the gurus of the occult never claimed to know it all or even know too much.after all we are all mortals and Ego can be an obstacle towards enlightenment,If you really know it all,then i would gladly worship you..

I will not turn it to an argument,as thats not the reason i am here.


Peace and love to all
Azareth
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Remared
post Apr 15 2009, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE(Aphrodite @ Apr 13 2009, 07:16 AM) *
Well going by the quote you threw up I should “doubt” it all including Crowley‘s enormous body of work. You still lack understanding though. Also Crowley isn’t the only magician out there.

I am pretty sure IA's use of Crowley's quote is to point out that the common theory going around these days on "belief makes it work" isn't true at all. Crowley, by the way, is referenced by many in the new age community (from whence this "belief" sprang) and I thought it is quite clever to point out that he himself told people to "doubt". A simple read of IA's posts would suggest that he is well acquainted with much more than just your standard crowley fan boy out there. So I guess you have missed the point here.

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Fio Praeter Humanus
post Apr 15 2009, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE(Imperial Arts @ Apr 12 2009, 06:21 PM) *


The Rose is a symbol taken from the larger Golden Dawn system, and its power in part is a result of long developing work in that system.



The rose is the heart of the rose cross, the lamen of the golden dawn adept. It is a symbol of balance, harmony, the great work complete, and tiphareth among other things. It's point of balance is the reason it is used to draw sigils of words such as "Malkuth" for use in tools, talismans, etc. Everyone is speaking of the rose alone as if the rest of the cross has no bearing with it's beautiful harmony of pentagrams, hexagrams, tree of life, alchemical, and more obscure symbolism. None of the symbols alone is important, it is the relationship and balance to each other. The english letter version is a bastardization of the rose by Konstantinos. Even the arrangement of the hebrew letters is not random and a bit more than just mother, double, single. Incidentally, the version most people use as found in Regardie's "The Golden Dawn" is incorrect. The arrangement of two of the letters have been switched.

Now can a non Golden Dawn member or someone who has not gone through that system use the sigils generated? I don't know, it has never occurred to me before and as I have been a member of the Golden Dawn for years, I really have no way of testing it. But I would assume the answer is yes. Although I personally make a distinction between sigils and seals of spirits. A sigil being a type of phone number that you can use to contact a spirit or energy. Where a seal is a drawn representation of the actual spirit. If you ask the spirit to write his name, the seal generally is what it gives. Through the seal you can obtain power over the spirit. It is a long held occult idea that knowing the "true name" of a being gives you power over it. Where a sigil on the other hand is just a ways of contact, once obtain a seal can be twiddled out of a spirit.

Back to the topic of the rose cross. Planetary squares can be used through their mathematical relationship to generate sigils to that associated planet. They work based on nothing else but the Pythagorean-esk ideal of the universe is numbers. I know they work because I have used them. Then through those sigils obtained contact and the spirits true seal. Based upon that, I would assume the rose cross would work based on it's underlying qabalic symbolism for use of any tree of life type spirit. Outside of that I am not sure.


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azareth
post Apr 15 2009, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE(Remared @ Apr 15 2009, 10:48 AM) *

I am pretty sure IA's use of Crowley's quote is to point out that the common theory going around these days on "belief makes it work" isn't true at all. Crowley, by the way, is referenced by many in the new age community (from whence this "belief" sprang) and I thought it is quite clever to point out that he himself told people to "doubt". A simple read of IA's posts would suggest that he is well acquainted with much more than just your standard crowley fan boy out there. So I guess you have missed the point here.



I am not surprised that A.C caused this contreversy,but the point of doubting as an end in itself,is not as wise as it appears,as i said before "Doubt till you believe". My intention isnt to belittle anyone,and will not tolerate this to be done to anyone,respect to each other is essential as we are supposed to be grown ups and members or a respectful occult community,and should not speak ill of each other.I am sure many people here have experienced a great deal and know much.so no need to belittle anyone.

last but not least. Each have his/her own path and his /her own ways ,the wise will view other's systems and regard them with an open mind,to quickly reject something is to deprive oneself from the benefit of knowledge,.if what I write doesnt suit you,well just ignore it. No one in the universe possesses the whole knowledge,but it is distributed among men,women sages and idiots.
I have learned from vagabonds and so called crazy people as i learned from sages and wise men.

I respect crowley,know much about him and his life,i can tell you a complete auto biography about Aliester,yet i wouldnt do that as there are many books that speak of this subject.



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azareth
post Apr 15 2009, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE(Fio Praeter Humanus @ Apr 15 2009, 02:11 PM) *

The rose is the heart of the rose cross, the lamen of the golden dawn adept. It is a symbol of balance, harmony, the great work complete, and tiphareth among other things. It's point of balance is the reason it is used to draw sigils of words such as "Malkuth" for use in tools, talismans, etc. Everyone is speaking of the rose alone as if the rest of the cross has no bearing with it's beautiful harmony of pentagrams, hexagrams, tree of life, alchemical, and more obscure symbolism. None of the symbols alone is important, it is the relationship and balance to each other. The english letter version is a bastardization of the rose by Konstantinos. Even the arrangement of the hebrew letters is not random and a bit more than just mother, double, single. Incidentally, the version most people use as found in Regardie's "The Golden Dawn" is incorrect. The arrangement of two of the letters have been switched.

Now can a non Golden Dawn member or someone who has not gone through that system use the sigils generated? I don't know, it has never occurred to me before and as I have been a member of the Golden Dawn for years, I really have no way of testing it. But I would assume the answer is yes. [size=2][color=#993399]Although I personally make a distinction between sigils and seals of spirits. A sigil being a type of phone number that you can use to contact a spirit or energy. Where a seal is a drawn representation of the actual spirit. If you ask the spirit to write his name, the seal generally is what it gives. Through the seal you can obtain power over the spirit. It is a long held occult idea that knowing the "true name" of a being gives you power over it. Where a sigil on the other hand is just a ways of contact, once obtain a seal can be twiddled out of a spirit.

Back to the topic of the rose cross. Planetary squares can be used through their mathematical relationship to generate sigils to that associated planet. They work based on nothing else but the Pythagorean-esk ideal of the universe is numbers. I know they work because I have used them. Then through those sigils obtained contact and the spirits true seal. Based upon that, I would assume the rose cross would work based on it's underlying qabalic symbolism for use of any tree of life type spirit. Outside of that I am not sure.




what you said about the difference between sigils and seals is true,a seal is something personal as you stated (a representaion of the spirit) but the sigil is different,that's why I wouldnt edit or modify Goetic seals for example.but i would modify sigils,perhaps create ones too.which may have caused this argument.

Peace and love

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Aphrodite
post Apr 15 2009, 02:47 PM
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“A sigil being a type of phone number that you can use to contact a spirit or energy. Where a seal is a drawn representation of the actual spirit. If you ask the spirit to write his name, the seal generally is what it gives. Through the seal you can obtain power over the spirit. It is a long held occult idea that knowing the "true name" of a being gives you power over it. Where a sigil on the other hand is just a ways of contact, once obtain a seal can be twiddled out of a spirit.”

Ahhh, ok that makes sense. I don’t work with the Goetia, so for example with the Archangel Michael, there are so many seals and sigils for him, that I just figured seals and sigils were basically the same. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush2.gif)

“I am pretty sure IA's use of Crowley's quote is to point out that the common theory going around these days on "belief makes it work" isn't true at all. Crowley, by the way, is referenced by many in the new age community (from whence this "belief" sprang) and I thought it is quite clever to point out that he himself told people to "doubt". A simple read of IA's posts would suggest that he is well acquainted with much more than just your standard crowley fan boy out there. So I guess you have missed the point here.”

Oh well. Yes, Crowley’s work is useful (I use Liber 777 extensively) but there are many, many occultist out there that see beyond Crowley’s words, and think out the box. Using a Crowley quote to prove a point is ineffective IMO, its like using a Biblical quote to prove a point to an atheist.

This post has been edited by Aphrodite: Apr 15 2009, 02:49 PM

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Praxis
post Nov 15 2011, 07:37 AM
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A map is not the same as the territory.
A menu is not the same as the meal.

A symbol is not the same as that which is symbolized.

Unless I make a significantly connect the symbol and symbolized together, that symbol is useless for me.
And this means that regardless of what a name, sigil, seal, icon, glyph, etc... symbolizes for someone/group on a metaphysical level, if it is not significantly meaningful for me then it has no power over me.


o.O.o



The classic core of the topic that this sort of discussion tends to orbit around is an argument over what is and/or is not "real".

Counter arguments tend to bring up entities or events in the Physical Plane. For example: whether or not the word/sigil/seal/icon/etc... for a tiger is symbolically significant for you doesn't mean that you're not going to experience a potentially fatal outcome if you encounter a real tiger and it pounces you! Then an extrapolation is made for such an example from the physical to the metaphysical and a pronouncement of the situation is proclaimed to be the "same thing".

But such extrapolations "ain't necessarily so".
In fact, for me, such examples and extrapolations are flat out erroneous.

As I know it: any insistence for that it is necessarily so amounts to nothing more than an attempt to coax, cajole, or otherwise convince me to accept that what is "real" for them on a metaphysical level necessarily also must be real for me - that the entities/events/dynamics/etc... that they and/or their group discerns on a metaphysical level, and therefore that the codifications (symbols) they use for symbolizing (and with which manipulating) said entities/events/dynamics/etc... organized according to their personal or group paradigm, also must be significant for, affect, and thus be adopted and used by me. According to their exact instructions for doing so (of course).

In other words: it's an attempt to proselytize (albeit in a magick-user way) - essentially akin to how certain notorious religions attempt to convert folks, complete with similar dire threats about what will happen if I do not meekly and obediently convert to using their paradigm as authoritative for my metaphysical understanding and experience.


o.O.o



Make no mistake here - I am willing carefully to consider the merits of various metaphysical entities and events with which people work and engage. I'm willing to break down and analyse their core (and associated) principle constituents and theoretical actions. Who knows? I might find a pragmatic use for them myself.

However, the bottom line remains: no symbol, sigil, seal, icon, necessarily means anything, or does anything, to me unless I've incorporated it into my Operating System.

And with all that said - yes, I do find various method for making sigils (like the Rose Cross, etc...) extremely useful for quickly iconalizing stuff in my personal paradigm.

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Vagrant Dreamer
post Nov 17 2011, 11:02 AM
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Wow, Praxis you've been on a resurrection kick for a while here, haven't you?

I think that the efficacy of a sigil drawn from the rose, isn't empowered in some way because it was drawn on the rose. It has the same degree of efficacy of any other sigil drawn using any other method. The proper use of the rose cross - or any other similarly situated symbol properly placed in the practitioner's sphere of consciousness - is another story, but for anyone not using it properly it's just a method of drawing lines in an orderly fashion.

I personally believe the planetary kamea to be the same kind of system, and that the effectiveness of the sigils drawn using them are worthless unless you have grasped the patterning of the square and what the magical square represents in terms of magical work, rather than just a curiosity of math.

Widespread belief in something is worthless of the widespread belief in is different directions - every person on the earth could be aware of the rose in the rose cross, and it wouldn't make a difference unless they were all initiates with the full understanding of what the symbol means, where it's spiritual counterpart exists in them, and had all of the same elements precisely aligned in the same way across the board. This is the intent of a lot of people focused on the same thing, but unless your intentions match, there will be conflict. Likewise, the use and belief of INITIATES might play a role in empowering the rose in some way - but unless you are lined up with that current properly it's just ink and paper to your use.

I did a fun experiment in the way-back, when we were playing with psi-wheels and PK. My friend and I were trying to work together to make the psi-wheel turn, but this exercise was actually less effective together than it was apart. We tried this consistently for a few days, and continued to practice on our own, but for whatever reason we could not wiggle the wheel even a bit. We both believed that our method, mentally, was basically better - but couldn't deny that if this were true then it should still be working.

So, we both described our process, and came up with a kind of compromise. Step by step we established a very, very specific psychic protocol, from the mental state we got to based on mutual experiences, up to how we actually viewed the psycho-material process happening. We left no detail (that we were aware of) untouched, we started with mind and worked our way out to matter and then down into the itty-bitty bits and the space between and back into mind, completing the circle and ensuring that we were 100% on the same page. Low and behold, with just a little more practice the little wheel spins back and forth, not drastically more impressive than our individual game, but at least noticeably improved. What's more, we recognized that being 'on the same page' made the experiment move forward whereas having conflicting ideas, even subtle ones where the intention was basically the same, stopped the whole process entirely.

It's a demonstration of the same principle. If two or more people take the same symbol and work with it in precisely the same way, in tandem and 'cadence', both internally and externally, then yes the work is empowered by their collective efforts - this is the whole point of initiation and lodge work. It's the reason initiation is such a lengthy process. Like IA mentioned, it's the indoctrination process; it gets everyone on the same page, working the same way, having traveled the same path (as 'same' as it can be, anyway) with the same connections, interpretations, and symbols that all mean precisely the same thing to all of them. It is not enough for a group of people to just agree that this symbol is good for making sigils. It has to be much, much deeper than that.

Beyond that though aside from having internal consistency that won't confuse the unconscious, making a group work like that is really that simple - which is to say, structuring it is relatively simple. For it's purpose, the rose cross might as well be a rose star, or a rose doorknob, or anything else. As long as everyone is on the same page from the bottom up, it works the same way.

Jung's collective unconscious is about looooong generational influences in species-wide inherited unconscious attributes. Something like the Rose Cross is not present in the collective unconscious, nor is some sigil that any random group of people agree to use together. This is a very widely misunderstood concept, often used as a reason why a lot of people believing in something gives it some kind of psychic power. That is not the case, and Jung's work - if actually read - does not suggest that this is in any way so. Now, might everything that is, was, and can be exist on a spiritual/astral kind of level, intemporal in nature? Sure. But that also doesn't mean the same thing, any more than someone inventing a piece of technology (or have been going to always have done so - for your intemporal past-future-present-perfect tense of the day) means that you are immediately able to grasp that tech and how to build it yourself.

peace


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The world is complicated - that which makes it up is elegantly simplistic, but infinitely versatile.

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Praxis
post Nov 17 2011, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE
Wow, Praxis you've been on a resurrection kick for a while here, haven't you?



Yeah - when I can, instead of starting new threads that just bring up topics which already have been brought up, I have been resurrecting some of the old threads and adding to them. Hopefully, doing so will encourage new members and visitors to this site to read what has come before, and encourage them to know it's okay to add their perspectives - even if those who first engaged the topics are not here.

In addition to adding a kind of continuity over time to the entire process, it also lets members see that some perspectives can indeed change over time about various issues as poster's personal development progresses.



QUOTE
It's a demonstration of the same principle. If two or more people take the same symbol and work with it in precisely the same way, in tandem and 'cadence', both internally and externally, then yes the work is empowered by their collective efforts - this is the whole point of initiation and lodge work. It's the reason initiation is such a lengthy process. Like IA mentioned, it's the indoctrination process; it gets everyone on the same page, working the same way, having traveled the same path (as 'same' as it can be, anyway) with the same connections, interpretations, and symbols that all mean precisely the same thing to all of them. It is not enough for a group of people to just agree that this symbol is good for making sigils. It has to be much, much deeper than that.

Beyond that though aside from having internal consistency that won't confuse the unconscious, making a group work like that is really that simple - which is to say, structuring it is relatively simple. For it's purpose, the rose cross might as well be a rose star, or a rose doorknob, or anything else. As long as everyone is on the same page from the bottom up, it works the same way.



This all is a great elucidation for why Magickal Orders work well with aligning symbols and symbolized for their members.

I can see how Initiation within an Order may be the bridge which, once crossed, enables aspirants to not only learn the various symbols of their system well - but also stimulate their intent and focus enough to smith the links between symbol and symbolized, such that ritual work with them (according to the Order's practice) can be maximally magickally effective.


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