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 Black Magick Musings..., Seductive Rhetoric
monkman418
post Jan 18 2011, 11:15 PM
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It has been said by the philosophers that God is dead. Yet Satan lives.

It occurred to me yesterday that many people are more deeply affected by their fear of black magick, are more convinced by the possible reality of 'demons', and more influenced by the perceived powers of "satan," than they are affected by another mainstream or off-beat spiritual system.

Case in point, I know atheists who laugh at the idea of a "God" or other spirits, but who become very afraid at seeing a copy of The Goetia or The Satanic Bible. I also know Catholics who don't take their "religion" seriously, but who take "evil black magick" very seriously; one's prayers may be completely ineffective, but be sure that anything incanted by mean Mr. Crowley or Anton Lavey and their followers will be sure to have real outcomes.

The dynamics of deliberately using the threat of black magick, to gain worldly influence aside, I'm very interested in what this means about us as spiritual seekers who grow in a climate where these factors are often true. For if Satan has all power in the world, and can be relied upon to answer at the worshipper's beck and call by our power to fear, feel, and thus invoke him, is Satan then not God?

"...there is an old parable which relates how the hound that had tempted man the whole length of his perilous journey, devoured him on the Summit of that Mystic Mountain; and how that Ancient DOG was indeed GOD himself." (Temple of Solomon the King).

...would a rose by any other name smell just as pungent?

...especially if the black magician tricks himself into following God!

In sum though, the question remains...where does the pied piper lead if he is followed? I look forward to your responses...

p.s. This would be more an example of a "Theistic" sort of demonology or Satanism than otherwise.

This post has been edited by monkman418: Jan 18 2011, 11:17 PM


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"It sometimes strikes me that the whole of science is a piece of impudence; that nature can afford to ignore our impertinent interference. If our monkey mischief should ever reach the point of blowing up the earth by decomposing an atom, and even annihilated the sun himself, I cannot really suppose that the universe would turn a hair.” --- Aleister Crowley

“We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special."
--- Stephen Hawking

Therefore, God is a monkey.

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Vilhjalmr
post Jan 19 2011, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE(monkman418 @ Jan 18 2011, 11:15 PM) *

Case in point, I know atheists who laugh at the idea of a "God" or other spirits, but who become very afraid at seeing a copy of The Goetia or The Satanic Bible.

I hope you mocked them thoroughly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

QUOTE
The dynamics of deliberately using the threat of black magick, to gain worldly influence aside, I'm very interested in what this means about us as spiritual seekers who grow in a climate where these factors are often true. For if Satan has all power in the world, and can be relied upon to answer at the worshipper's beck and call by our power to fear, feel, and thus invoke him, is Satan then not God?

I think, on the whole, there might be a great many more people who have faith in God's omnipotence than people who fear or practice "black magic". I used to attend a Christian institution, and they scoffed at the idea that "witchcraft" (as they called it) could have any affect on one protected by Jesus Christ... unless the person was tempted and choose to deny God of their own volition.

On the other hand, as you say, I know people who are lukewarm at best on Godly things, but wouldn't dare attempt to summon a demon. I think it's mostly cultural: God is good, so even if you're not too enthusiastic about the idea, there's nothing to fear... but demons and black magic and so forth tap into that "what if" fear, as well as being frowned upon as deviant and weird by society at large.


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Dancing Coyote
post Jan 20 2011, 12:05 AM
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QUOTE
The phrase Black Magician unfairly applies to anyone who has taken your lover or money by occult means. However, Self-Professed Black Magicians seem universally unable to fight, f%*!, or even buy their way out of wet paper bags, despite fantasizing constantly about becoming powerful psychopaths. The high point in a career of ultimate evil - getting badly scratched whilst failing to strangle a cat, ha! ha! ha!

Those sanctimonious transcendentalists who profess themselves White Magicians never do anything unpleasant without the very best of spiritual reasons, but spend most of their careers casting ineffectual spells at imaginary evils to no effect. an averse pentagram scrawled on their doorsteps as a joke can keep one busy for several years.

Off-White magickians require no spiritual or demonic justification for their acts, and can take your lover or money without leaving you feeling bad about it.

-Peter J. Carroll


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Lichdar
post Jan 27 2011, 06:35 AM
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I think it is generally believed that demons are more capable or willing to materialize and rip you into bloody shreds, while angels are somehow more circumspect. It has a lot to do with Christianity being essentially a forgive and forebear religion with subtle promises of reward, which implies its contrast would be immediately powerful if short-lived. Certainly there are many stories of Christians who felt they were menaced by demonically aided armies(as they saw it) like the Saracens or the Golden Horde; clearly the devils are pretty powerful if they can invade you, kill your knights and rape your sister.

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☞Tomber☜
post Jan 27 2011, 09:39 PM
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^ subtle promises? they are very VERY clear really.

Just sayin' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)


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QUOTE(Vagrant Dreamer @ Jan 30 2013, 02:19 AM) *
Expect nothing, or you will get caught up in the future and not pay attention to the present. Just do the practice diligently, do it because you enjoy it, do it because you believe in it. Don't wait for results, don't wait for it to happen.

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Vagrant Dreamer
post Jan 27 2011, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE(☞Tomber☜ @ Jan 27 2011, 10:39 PM) *

^ subtle promises? they are very VERY clear really.

Just sayin' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)


But apply to non-material or spiritual gains, hence, subtle. Versus: Beelzebub offers you, say, an endless stream of virgins to congress. Endless stream of virgins you can measure, the possibility of entering heaven AFTER you die, you won't know if you can measure until you die... if you were wrong, then you didn't get anything in life or after.

peace


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☞Tomber☜
post Jan 28 2011, 03:50 PM
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^ fair enough


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QUOTE(Vagrant Dreamer @ Jan 30 2013, 02:19 AM) *
Expect nothing, or you will get caught up in the future and not pay attention to the present. Just do the practice diligently, do it because you enjoy it, do it because you believe in it. Don't wait for results, don't wait for it to happen.

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Waterfall
post Jan 29 2011, 03:06 PM
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Hmm...

Beelzebub: You get an endless stream of willing virgins to f**k. Deal?
Magickian: Deal.
Beelzebub: Heh heh. (poof)

Next week a sheep rancher moves next door to you. The young ewes keep chasing you everywhere you go.

Out come the sword and robes.

Beelzebub: Now what?
Magickian: I meant human virgins, not sheep.
Beelzebub: A deal's a deal.
Magickian: I've got your sigil, demon. Obey.
Beelzebub: (grumble) Endless stream of willing, human virgins. OK?
Magickian: That's it.
Beelzebub: Heh heh heh. (poof)

Next week the sheep rancher moves away and a school for young boys moves in. Very young boys. They chase you everywhere.

Sword and robes again.

Beelzebub: I'M GETTING ANNOYED WITH YOU, MORTAL.
Magickian: I've still got your sigil. An endless stream of young, sexually ready, female, human virgins who desire me. Get it right.
Beelzebub: OK, but you must agree that this time you accept what you get.
Magickian: Agreed.
Beelzebub: (no laugh, just a big smile & poof)

The next night you awaken to sounds of splintering wood and shattering glass. A horde of zombies surrounds your house, moaning "brains, must have brains", breaking down your door and climbing in your windows. They're dead and decaying, covered with worms and missing body parts.

They're all young girls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

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monkman418
post Jan 29 2011, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE(Waterfall @ Jan 29 2011, 03:06 PM) *


The next night you awaken to sounds of splintering wood and shattering glass. A horde of zombies surrounds your house, moaning "brains, must have brains", breaking down your door and climbing in your windows. They're dead and decaying, covered with worms and missing body parts.

They're all young girls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)


MUHAHAHA! Thank you for that, Waterfall! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

...though I wonder whether people who work with Goetia and demons on a regular basis would disagree with the general moral here. This is getting a bit off topic, but I think your story presents the popular idea that certain types of magick are inherently going to bite the practitioner in the arse, the tacit implication of course being that one should only practice "high spiritual" magick (which is usually whatever class of magick the storyteller practices). While this might be correct for certain schools of magick as a general trend, I think it confuses the issue: any type of spiritual practice can delude the practitioner and incur negative results.

I do agree though that one would most certainly be devoured by the "demon" (or by the gnombs, sylphs, and salamanders) by making deals with them.





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MonkMan418
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"It sometimes strikes me that the whole of science is a piece of impudence; that nature can afford to ignore our impertinent interference. If our monkey mischief should ever reach the point of blowing up the earth by decomposing an atom, and even annihilated the sun himself, I cannot really suppose that the universe would turn a hair.” --- Aleister Crowley

“We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special."
--- Stephen Hawking

Therefore, God is a monkey.

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Waterfall
post Jan 30 2011, 12:16 PM
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Yes, the story follows the popular idea of "deals with the devil", not the concepts in Goetia (or Abramelin, or Bardon, or many Eastern systems). But it does go back to your original question.

Most people are ruled by fear. Not surprising, as their lives are set up to teach them that avoidance of suffering is the normal goal of living. Even when they suppress it (because they're afraid of admitting it to themselves) that attitude becomes an unconscious guide in everything they do or think. If they're trained in some form of religion when young they may give lip service to the idea of an all-powerful, beneficent God but really, deep down, they don't believe it. Also, consider that magickal processes can be used by untrained persons with natural gifts and that even in cultures without a magickal tradition this occasionally occurs. Thus the fear of "black magick" even by atheists and most of those who profess to be "saved".

So most everyone who reads that story will agree with the moral. Magick is bad and the "demons" are out to get you. That's what they believe.

Besides, my muse is Thalia, and when Tomber said "fair enough", well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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monkman418
post Jan 30 2011, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE(Waterfall @ Jan 30 2011, 12:16 PM) *

Yes, the story follows the popular idea of "deals with the devil", not the concepts in Goetia (or Abramelin, or Bardon, or many Eastern systems). But it does go back to your original question.

Most people are ruled by fear. Not surprising, as their lives are set up to teach them that avoidance of suffering is the normal goal of living. Even when they suppress it (because they're afraid of admitting it to themselves) that attitude becomes an unconscious guide in everything they do or think. If they're trained in some form of religion when young they may give lip service to the idea of an all-powerful, beneficent God but really, deep down, they don't believe it. Also, consider that magickal processes can be used by untrained persons with natural gifts and that even in cultures without a magickal tradition this occasionally occurs. Thus the fear of "black magick" even by atheists and most of those who profess to be "saved".

So most everyone who reads that story will agree with the moral. Magick is bad and the "demons" are out to get you. That's what they believe.

Besides, my muse is Thalia, and when Tomber said "fair enough", well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Ah, I see. That makes sense.

Sorry to interject my pet peeve on you here; I can forgive "the commoners" for their fear, but quickly become irritated when occultists condemn occultism. Obviously this isn't what you were going for, and I'm glad you could clarify (and that I didn't get too jumpy!).

I was disappointed with Tomber's response, I appreciate his fierce debate and had hoped Vagrant's remarks would instigate a vigorous discussion. Your story was very well written and enjoyable; I hope you have my assurances that my responding debate is my way of saying that I like you and appreciate what you have to say.


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"It sometimes strikes me that the whole of science is a piece of impudence; that nature can afford to ignore our impertinent interference. If our monkey mischief should ever reach the point of blowing up the earth by decomposing an atom, and even annihilated the sun himself, I cannot really suppose that the universe would turn a hair.” --- Aleister Crowley

“We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special."
--- Stephen Hawking

Therefore, God is a monkey.

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Lichdar
post Jan 30 2011, 11:42 PM
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I understand that the demons of the Goetia do indeed try to trick the summoner and are often deceptive, but a properly prepared and wise mage can avoid many of their devices. Of course, I do not work with the Goetia so my opinion is as valid as any other laymen. ImperialArts seems to have done excellent work with them and gained much in the way of revelation.

My experience with angels is that they are less willing to directly assist you and more willing to grant you the experience and knowledge that will move you closer to your goal, so in a way, much more subtle. When I summoned one for wealth, for example, I was given a vast amount of overtime and such paid in demanding labor and stress. That may have been a feature of the particular entity I summoned, however.

My final thought on black magick, though, is that in theory that it should be inevitably victorious by definition. Consider this analogy: a fortress, no matter how well defended, must eventually fall to an attack that is sufficiently powerful; further, a fortress is leveled by /any/ weakness in its buwalk, whereas an attack only needs to be more powerful than the least weakness exhibited by the fortress. This notion on strategy would suggest that simple nonaggressive defense is a fool's path.

This post has been edited by Lichdar: Jan 30 2011, 11:49 PM

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Vilhjalmr
post Jan 31 2011, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE(Lichdar @ Jan 30 2011, 11:42 PM) *

Consider this analogy: a fortress, no matter how well defended, must eventually fall to an attack that is sufficiently powerful

But also: an attack, no matter how powerful, must eventually fail to breach a fortress that is sufficiently well-defended...

Immovable object/unstoppable force conundrum, seems to me.


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Waterfall
post Jan 31 2011, 03:35 PM
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I see some assumptions in this discussion that no one has mentioned.

First, do all of you believe that Firth was wrong in saying that any spirit you evoke can have no greater power than you have?

Second, making analogies between mundane and occult actions. Mundane weapons are anonymous. A magickal attack forms an energetic link; I've used that in responding to attacks with great success. Human, elemental, demonic, deistic, whatever; it has built into it the unique resonance of the originator and I've never seen that successfully hidden.

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monkman418
post Jan 31 2011, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE(Waterfall @ Jan 31 2011, 03:35 PM) *

A magickal attack forms an energetic link; I've used that in responding to attacks with great success. Human, elemental, demonic, deistic, whatever; it has built into it the unique resonance of the originator and I've never seen that successfully hidden.


Could you explain this a little bit more? How do you personally see/sense/know the energetic link?



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"It sometimes strikes me that the whole of science is a piece of impudence; that nature can afford to ignore our impertinent interference. If our monkey mischief should ever reach the point of blowing up the earth by decomposing an atom, and even annihilated the sun himself, I cannot really suppose that the universe would turn a hair.” --- Aleister Crowley

“We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special."
--- Stephen Hawking

Therefore, God is a monkey.

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Waterfall
post Feb 1 2011, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE(monkman418 @ Jan 31 2011, 07:47 PM) *

Could you explain this a little bit more? How do you personally see/sense/know the energetic link?

Can you feel the "flow"? It's basic to energy work. It's the movement or concentration of chi (subtle energy) involved in all magick. If you can, do your normal protection, confine the contact you have from the sending, put yourself in a receptive state (NOT accepting, just receptive) and feel/listen/look at the "flow" that comes from the sending. If you're not practiced enough to visualize it often helps to use the energetic port on your palm. If it's from a person you'll get their energetic signature. Memorize that. If it's through an entity you'll get that first, then command the link to extend to the sender. Quietly consider the signature you've gotten until you have no trouble keeping it in your mind. Then send what you want (or return the entity if you work that way).

Experience: nasty self-maintaining entity sent to me by someone I met (and had no reason to do so, except viciousness). As far as I could see, was designed to promote a cancerous growth. Sent it back. Last I heard he got cancer of the jaw.

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monkman418
post Feb 2 2011, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE(Waterfall @ Feb 1 2011, 06:12 PM) *

Can you feel the "flow"? It's basic to energy work. It's the movement or concentration of chi (subtle energy) involved in all magick. If you can, do your normal protection, confine the contact you have from the sending, put yourself in a receptive state (NOT accepting, just receptive) and feel/listen/look at the "flow" that comes from the sending. If you're not practiced enough to visualize it often helps to use the energetic port on your palm. If it's from a person you'll get their energetic signature. Memorize that. If it's through an entity you'll get that first, then command the link to extend to the sender. Quietly consider the signature you've gotten until you have no trouble keeping it in your mind. Then send what you want (or return the entity if you work that way).

Experience: nasty self-maintaining entity sent to me by someone I met (and had no reason to do so, except viciousness). As far as I could see, was designed to promote a cancerous growth. Sent it back. Last I heard he got cancer of the jaw.


Thank you for the detailed explanation.

I am trying to understand what you mean by "the flow." Are there any sources/books/traditions you are thinking of in particular here? I ask because there are many approaches to energy work. Would "the astral plane" or "astral link" be an appropriate translation, or do you mean something else entirely?

This post has been edited by monkman418: Feb 2 2011, 07:18 PM


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"It sometimes strikes me that the whole of science is a piece of impudence; that nature can afford to ignore our impertinent interference. If our monkey mischief should ever reach the point of blowing up the earth by decomposing an atom, and even annihilated the sun himself, I cannot really suppose that the universe would turn a hair.” --- Aleister Crowley

“We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special."
--- Stephen Hawking

Therefore, God is a monkey.

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Waterfall
post Feb 3 2011, 12:29 AM
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QUOTE(monkman418 @ Feb 2 2011, 08:17 PM) *

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

I am trying to understand what you mean by "the flow." Are there any sources/books/traditions you are thinking of in particular here? I ask because there are many approaches to energy work. Would "the astral plane" or "astral link" be an appropriate translation, or do you mean something else entirely?

Something else. I'm not talking about the astral plane, I mean something that directly affects the physical. IMO training in ceremonial magick has a couple of big holes in it. One is insufficient emphasis on mental state, but that's another story. The other is energy (chi) work. The conscious control of chi enormously amplifies magick or can be used by itself. The "signs" used in rituals are obvious attempts to direct chi. Traditions? Yes, Chi-Gong training eventually gives control of chi, but modern procedures are much faster. Most of the modern systems use tactile sensation and memory as a key to directly controlling chi flow. The two training systems I'm familiar with are Astral Dynamics and Quantum Touch. Both are simple and give effective control of chi flow, though Quantum Touch integrates directly into ceremonial magickal practice.

I've had two fairly advanced ceremonial magickians sneer at me when I said I did energy work. They had no idea what they were missing (and I didn't tell them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

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monkman418
post Feb 5 2011, 11:42 PM
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QUOTE(Waterfall @ Feb 3 2011, 12:29 AM) *

Something else. I'm not talking about the astral plane, I mean something that directly affects the physical. IMO training in ceremonial magick has a couple of big holes in it. One is insufficient emphasis on mental state, but that's another story. The other is energy (chi) work. The conscious control of chi enormously amplifies magick or can be used by itself. The "signs" used in rituals are obvious attempts to direct chi. Traditions? Yes, Chi-Gong training eventually gives control of chi, but modern procedures are much faster. Most of the modern systems use tactile sensation and memory as a key to directly controlling chi flow. The two training systems I'm familiar with are Astral Dynamics and Quantum Touch. Both are simple and give effective control of chi flow, though Quantum Touch integrates directly into ceremonial magickal practice.

I've had two fairly advanced ceremonial magickians sneer at me when I said I did energy work. They had no idea what they were missing (and I didn't tell them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).


Cool, thank you for this explanation. I have the "astral dynamics" book, so I can get a sense of what you're describing now. I think some people would identify these techniques with workings on the astral plane, which only goes to show how there really isn't much agreement from person to person on what these words mean in a technical sense.

One interesting idea you mention here is that the signs of magick are used to direct chi. Since this is (as you rightly point out) not explained in any sources, perhaps you would be willing to describe some of the more popular postures and how the chi would be directed if used, both for signs and in magick in general. I would encourage you to even start a new topic in the "ceremonial magick" subforum, since we'd be moving into something new if you were willing to do so.


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"It sometimes strikes me that the whole of science is a piece of impudence; that nature can afford to ignore our impertinent interference. If our monkey mischief should ever reach the point of blowing up the earth by decomposing an atom, and even annihilated the sun himself, I cannot really suppose that the universe would turn a hair.” --- Aleister Crowley

“We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special."
--- Stephen Hawking

Therefore, God is a monkey.

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Waterfall
post Feb 7 2011, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE(monkman418 @ Feb 6 2011, 12:42 AM) *

Cool, thank you for this explanation. I have the "astral dynamics" book, so I can get a sense of what you're describing now. I think some people would identify these techniques with workings on the astral plane, which only goes to show how there really isn't much agreement from person to person on what these words mean in a technical sense.

One interesting idea you mention here is that the signs of magick are used to direct chi. Since this is (as you rightly point out) not explained in any sources, perhaps you would be willing to describe some of the more popular postures and how the chi would be directed if used, both for signs and in magick in general. I would encourage you to even start a new topic in the "ceremonial magick" subforum, since we'd be moving into something new if you were willing to do so.

Bruce's "Astral Dynamics" book is his earlier work and mostly about the astral plane, with a small section on chi. If you want to use his system for chi control you should get a copy of his "New Energy Ways"; I have a copy of the pdf if you want it. It's a more complete development of the system. Astral Dynamics is what he originally called the whole system so I gave you the wrong name. I'm talking about what I believe to be observable effects in the physical world, not only the astral.

Looking at descriptions of workings in ceremonial magick like "the sign of the enterer" in the LBRP or others in the more advanced workings it's obvious that they're attempts to control chi. Gestures plus visualization plus utterance (symbology plus breathing) plus emotion is one way to do it, though it can be improved with conscious control. Don't know if there's anything more to say; if someone knows chi control it's obvious, if not it's just part of the ritual.

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☞Tomber☜
post Feb 8 2011, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE(Waterfall @ Feb 1 2011, 08:12 PM) *

Can you feel the "flow"? It's basic to energy work.


I think I know what you are referring to and it can be frustratingly hard to distinguish that from my mood/feelings/whatever. But I agree.


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QUOTE(Vagrant Dreamer @ Jan 30 2013, 02:19 AM) *
Expect nothing, or you will get caught up in the future and not pay attention to the present. Just do the practice diligently, do it because you enjoy it, do it because you believe in it. Don't wait for results, don't wait for it to happen.

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Waterfall
post Feb 9 2011, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE(☞Tomber☜ @ Feb 8 2011, 11:52 PM) *

I think I know what you are referring to and it can be frustratingly hard to distinguish that from my mood/feelings/whatever. But I agree.

The simplest way I know is to practice one of the modern systems of chi control. Look through "New Energy Ways" by Bruce or "Quantum Touch: The Power to Heal" by Gordon and practice that system. The sensation is unmistakable and once you have sensory feedback conscious control is easy.

Getting back to Monkman's original thread, I would like to know if all of you believe that Firth was wrong. I've always assumed she was right and worked at developing my own abilities instead of depending on spirits/entities to follow my commands. Reading Imperial Arts work and the postings in the Necronomicon section I see that at least most of you believe otherwise. Have you had experiences that lead you to believe that you can command entities more powerful than you are? Have you tested your own abilities in comparison to the spirits?

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