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 Invocation Vs Evocation
davisxmonster
post Mar 21 2009, 05:58 PM
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Invocation, the act of taking a godform's persona and making it your own.

Evocation: The act of summoning a godform for communication

I have to ask. What exactly are each one used for.

strengths

weaknesses.

Which do you perfer?

I have no experience in ivocation outside of the lbrp when you invoke the archangels.

I have no experience outside a failed evocation of forenus..... *shudders* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fie.gif)

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bym
post Mar 21 2009, 08:56 PM
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Greetings!
I'm sure that my next couple of sentences will cause no end of dissention...but this is a discussion Forum...
Invocation: the calling to within oneself a spiritual presence/ideal such as a prayer.
Evocation: the calling of a spiritual being or presence outside of oneself such as the summoning of a spirit into the Triangle. These are loose parameters. IN-vocation (inner), Evo-cation (outer). When I summon the shade of my Grandfather I use evocation, when I pray to my diety I use invocation. In an other thread it was supposed that one would evoke a diety. I highly discourage this for obvious reasons. Invocation of a diety will bring you communication and the dieties flow of energy without a physical manifestation. These terms are quite often confused...to sometimes disasterous results. Now the Universal Pass-the-Buck Dodge...In My Humble Opinion! (gag!)


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davisxmonster
post Mar 22 2009, 07:47 AM
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hmmmmm i see.

you are right.

that made things more confusing.

you are saying not to evoke deities because their flow of energy would be way too hard to control, and something bad could happen, right?

If so, then what purpose does evoking have at all?

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bym
post Mar 22 2009, 08:22 AM
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Evocation is used to bring the manifesting power into physical/astral ranges. Not all spiritual energies are deific. Cursing and healing are evocative forms. So is aportation. So are various necromantic rituals (ie Dumb Supper or making of Zombies)
Strangely, the Catholic Ritual of Transubstantiation is evocative magic. Any magic resultant in a material end game is evocative. There are alot of uses for evocation! The sister Invocation has its points as well! Like I've alluded to...IMHO!


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davisxmonster
post Mar 22 2009, 09:04 AM
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wow

there is alot of confusion going on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

If evocation is so common then why did you say it's so dangerous?

WELL Thanks for the help....

is there some sort of book on the subject i could reference (Not goetia)

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esoterica
post Mar 22 2009, 11:49 AM
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i push direct contact with the entities - doing so is my mission

indeed entities are what wicca and all the invoking things are about

no real need to evoke them as they are already here, just invisible

since they have power and beginners don't they are a perfect match

not really evocation per se, they are entities (or at least thoughtforms)

to chat with one of these entities, choose a time frame (like, say, ancient rome) and one of their gods/goddesses (there are many - use the internet) - find out their likes and dislikes and give it a gift then listen and watch for its influence and 'voice' - not a voice in your head per se, but feelings and thoughts popping into your head

some people are anti-christian in one form or another, but you can also do the same with 'the god of gods', the thing that christians call 'god' - the gift was a house/altar, and the influence was flickering candlelight on candlesticks engraved with hebrew letters, the sparkling on the letters was though of as the voice, also the dradle, a top with engraved symbols/letters that, when it spins down and stops, a certain letter is on top, and all of that kind of thing - for egyptiian fans, look to the aton for the same idea - the symbol is the solar rays

whatever entity you choose has a symbol, like wicca has the moon, so you would determine that symbol via the internet and use it as a conduit for your connection

and most folks determine a new, inner name for themselves that reflects their entity friend

enjoy,
-es

edit: i'm writing a new story based on you and your search - let me know if you have a preference for the name - i'm thinking 'stefano' - no offense meant, of course, but i can't resist a good story


This post has been edited by esoterica: Mar 22 2009, 02:30 PM


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bym
post Mar 22 2009, 02:07 PM
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Where is your confusion?
The only thing I had mentioned is dangerous was to evoke a deity...with visions of newbs trying to DEMAND materializations of the gods! Invocation is just fine for that sort of thing! Es has a good outlook. I still don't understand your confusion?

Let me also make a point clear here...You will not find a book that maps out evocation for you just laying around. And if/when you do I'd check its bibliography very carefully! There are books (such as Constantines (sp?)) that deal with Goetia and related fields but I don't recommend them to beginners (and even then...). Most of what is published today is newage garbage. IMHO! LOL!
All of this will take time and effort. Again, where is your confusion? I'm not mocking you or making fun of you but if this tiny bit about magic throws you in over your head I suggest you step back and begin with things alittle less advanced. Good Journey! I'll try to help but you have to ask me something that illuminates your confusion first! If you cannot, then I can't help!


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esoterica
post Mar 22 2009, 02:40 PM
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great post bym!

i hope he isn't offended by the story, but like i said i couldn't resist the channelling - interesting way it went too (maybe cause of the influx since the other went byebye)

the part in the story where "some of the people on the forums were awful and mean, or just wanted to argue." - never on sm lololol, actually the mean, awful and arguing bit was about theblackvault.com's forum

he ain't ripe so i can't eat him lol, as i replied to him in the pm he sent me

pm somebody yourself sometime, will ya? - no work here except a few dumb game engine things and i'd love to chat and catch up - that goes for all of you guys!

This post has been edited by esoterica: Mar 22 2009, 03:04 PM


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davisxmonster
post Mar 22 2009, 06:08 PM
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@ esoterica

thanks

and i dont know why i'd be offended. The attatched pdf is blank.... unless you wanted me to add something.

@ bym

Well... i am mostly confused not by the subject material, but by the way you word your post.

i would also say the main cause of confusion is,

If invocation and evocation work with the same beings, why would it pay to evoke, invoke either one?

I did alot of thinking and what i personally see is that invocation is used to take on characteristics while evocation is used for communication of some sort.

making deals perhaps?

and bym, i thought there was no begginer's material in magic.

EDIT I attempted an invocation of thoth today to help improve my occult skill and understanding.

I belive i did everything correctly. I feel no different. It probobly didn't work.

In my head i saw a golden desert and a man with a bird head. I don't really remember it clearly, (It happened 10 minutes ago)

but i remember telling him i was going to invoke him for knowladge, and he said go for it. he also told me the secret of all occultism.

He said it in two voices. the first quoted himself "What is above is below is below is above" however he also said something i couldn't understand. A light shone and i was the exact same as before.

I had this "daydream" when absolutely nothing was occuring, so i thought i'd go talk to him myself. It felt like a normal daydream,

and i feel the same after.

But then again i could also interpret it in a daoist way of thinking that there was no second meaning, and the only thing keeping me from complete mastery of magic is myself.

and as the chaote saying goes (On this cerimonial thread) Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

maybe i wasn't meant to feel anything.......

all this thinking is making me dizzy.

This post has been edited by davisxmonster: Mar 22 2009, 08:03 PM

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Aphrodite
post Mar 22 2009, 08:12 PM
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I have more success invoking the spirit’s energies and petitioning/sending it out to do something than evoking them. . . Dunno why, maybe I need more practice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif)

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bym
post Mar 22 2009, 09:41 PM
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Evoke is to summon outside of oneself. "Hey Billy! Come here! I want to show you something!" is an evocation of Billy.

Invoke is to open ones inner self to whatever/whoever you are dealing with. It is an internal process. - 'Hmmm...what would Billy do about this?' This was an invocation. Prayer is an invocation.

Sometimes they can overlap but not often.
I'm sorry if you don't care for the way I phrase things...I'm not a teacher. Yes there is beginners material in magic...it varies from person to person. Not everybody will understand everything. You set your own limits to your learning. In this case we're having a trouble, on many fronts, with the word communication.

With your Invocation to Thoth...what did you expect to happen? By your standards everybody would be all-knowing, invincible and invulnerable with a simple petitioning of the gods. btw...according to you, you were evoking Thoth. (you weren't, but according to the definition you are clinging to, you are!)

That chaote phrase is utter crap. It's a catch all to sound lofty and mysterious. Everything is not permitted. Theoretically it exists. Now explain the word theoretical. You are pushing for too much, too soon without letting yourself catch up. Why don't you feel anything different? Let me quote myself and others..."Timing is everything..." Try to have a hammer fall on your foot after you daydream...it will appear to you in a completely different light! Now I'm fatigued and you are not rich enough to keep me going. Think upon these things some more after you've pushed them away for awhile. Sometimes we need to push the reset button.
I'm much too tired...for now. Good night!


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esoterica
post Mar 23 2009, 10:45 AM
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>The attatched pdf is blank
wtf?

ok, here:

Stefano Looks For Fireworks
By Esoterica
[email protected]
©2009 by Esoterica
Free to distribute with author's name included.

Stefano was searching for something big.
He was young and inexperienced, and afraid of 'getting in with the wrong crowd', but he was
looking for something more than just everyday living, mainly because he could sense it being
there somehow.
He tried meditating, but he couldn't quiet his mind for more than a few seconds, as his mind
was hyperactive and jumping from thing to thing like a flea on a hot skillet.
He looked through the internet, searching for the instant results he craved, wanting to be able
to do fireworks from his fingers, just like they did in the movies and tv, and he found so much
stuff about the occult that he would never get through it all!
There were people who sold books on how to do things just like he wanted to do it, and he
spent his birthday money on them, but they either didn't come or didn't make sense when they
did.
Nobody would tell him what to do to get the 'it' he needed, the power to do whatever he
wanted to do, and right then in that instant, with the effects right there for all to see!
He knew there was that power out there, but his parents warned him of bad people on the
internet, and he didn't like the things some people said, and some of the people on the forums
were awful and mean, or just wanted to argue.
He needed someone to show him how to get what he wanted in the here and now, not to
debate the ancient meanings of occult things!
He wanted basic, do­able, helpful information, packaged in a way he could understand, and
something that didn't take a long time to learn.
He had no money for special occult tools, or more useless books, or even time to study
beyond some few hours he could spend on the internet, and he didn't want to work with bad
things, but to embrace only the light and the good.
Then, one day, he found a place where they suggested that beginners could use deities, since
they have the power that the beginners hadn't achieved yet.
It rang a bell in his mind, almost like a prayer was answered!
He had played around with Wicca, but didn't like the feel of it, or the fact that they said he
should let go of his pride.
His pride was what he was, he wanted everyone to be proud, and even a little afraid, of him,
and his belief in himself was what he was looking to build up, just like they said in school for
him to always do.
On the forum they had said to choose an entity from a particular timeframe, and give the
deity a gift that they liked, and the deity, in return, would give him the power he craved, or
something like that.
He had read it too fast and didn't really digest it, but he wanted the power to stop bullies and
bullets, and save the planet, and just be a really powerful magician.
It was something he had not really planned, but he wanted the super­abilities like he saw on
the movies and tv shows and read about in books and even heard in his music, and right now,
since it had to be something that would let him be able to do stuff quickly too, since he had
no time to devote to it.
These deities would give him the power, and wouldn't his mom be so proud of him when he
could fly, and the bullies at school would be afraid of him enough to leave him alone, at least
after he taught them a lesson or two.
Following the instructions given on the internet, he looked through the lists of ancient Gods
and Goddesses, but none really rang a bell with him, and some were actually left a bad taste
in his mouth after reading about them.
He though that the God he had learned about in Sunday School was cool, and the
Commandment to 'have no other Gods before me' struck home, and he wondered if he could
follow the same instructions to get the power from his 'Real God' as opposed to those ancient
ones?
The internet had said to choose the God or Goddess, and then to give them a gift that they
wanted, and then to watch for their influence, or voice, working through their symbol, which
would just be feelings and stuff that appeared inside his head, always if his God worked the
same way as the other Gods and Goddesses did, then that should be easy!
First he had been instructed to give the God or Goddess of his choice a gift, and for his God,
that, according to what his Mom said was in the Bible, would be a House for God with an
Altar.
It was pretty easy to setup an Altar to God in a Christian house like his, and he found a lot of
pictures of Altars on the internet, but what was the symbol for God?
His religion said that God was un­formed, kind of like a gas as opposed to a solid like they
had learned in chemistry class, and he suddenly understood somehow that anything solidified
into a physical form would contain errors, since nothing physical was perfect, except for
maybe the son of God, and that must be what Original Sin must be!
He did more research on the internet and decided that the Cross was the perfect symbol for
God, but one site on the internet said the Cross had nothing to do with the Crucifiction of
Jesus, but the pouring down of power on the individual, which was just what he wanted!
He could even see a Cross himself if he went outside and squinted at the sun like the website
said to do! The Solar Cross was the symbol of the Word, the Power, coming down on him!
Finding the one Cross he liked, one that looked something like what was the image he saw
when he squinted at the sun, took a long time, but he got one at last and put it on his bedside
table.
His mom approved highly and patted his head, and he smiled under her love, as she was like
the earth and their home and everything that made him smile.
He even included a small image of Jesus and a Bible on his new Altar in this new House for
God, and he did just like they did in Church, giving it a gift of some bread and a few drops of
wine he got from his mom's empty glass, of course in Church they gave it to the people, not
to the symbols of the deity.
He started dreaming about things he had never thought about before, things like flying really
fast to strange places where he would try to fix things he didn't understand, and took
instruction on it from a teacher, and he noticed he was having feelings about people and
places and things, almost a gut reaction to them.
Sometimes people even made him physically sick feeling and he wanted to get away from
them when they were cussing, and other things made him feel good and made him smile,
almost from the inside, like when he read something good about God.
He had eagerly started to almost run to Church, seeing as he had always held back before
when he was made to go, but some things the preacher said didn't make much sense, but
when the preacher talked about God, Stefano listened intently.
Again, some of what he heard turned his stomach and actually made him queasy or nauseous.
Surely this was not his perfect and infallable and omnipotemt God that the preacher was
talking about!
He didn't understand where these feelings were coming from and why he was having them,
and he was getting very tired of waiting for his super­powers to show up since he had done
all the things the people had said do, including giving almost everything he had to the
Church.
He still couldn't control lightning, or levitate and fly around, or stop cars in their tracks, so he
dumped the Cross in the trash and quit trying.
It was all a lie and there was no such thing as magic, no matter what anybody said.

The End

©2009 by Esoterica
[email protected]
This story is by Esoterica and is free to distribute with the author's name included.


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esoterica
post Mar 23 2009, 10:56 AM
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QUOTE


EDIT I attempted an invocation of thoth today to help improve my occult skill and understanding.

I belive i did everything correctly. I feel no different. It probobly didn't work.

In my head i saw a golden desert and a man with a bird head. I don't really remember it clearly, (It happened 10 minutes ago)

but i remember telling him i was going to invoke him for knowladge, and he said go for it. he also told me the secret of all occultism.

He said it in two voices. the first quoted himself "What is above is below is below is above" however he also said something i couldn't understand. A light shone and i was the exact same as before.


jeepers, the story was right on! - damn scary even


edit: what the hell?....played?

This post has been edited by esoterica: Mar 23 2009, 11:30 AM


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davisxmonster
post Mar 23 2009, 03:33 PM
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He wanted basic, do­able, helpful information, packaged in a way he could understand

probobly the most true thing in the story (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Alot of that just soooo represents me, but about 75% of it couldn't be farther from the truth.

I don't expect you to know everything about me, especially since we've never even met, but it doesn't seem like a story about me,

it seems like a story about a fictional character designed to teach me some sort of lesson while brutally mocking me.

and bym. I'll put down the magic for a while, and just think about it later.

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bym
post Mar 23 2009, 04:25 PM
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I've always found that a timeout is called for when I reach an impasse. No shame. It allows our concious and subconcious time to get together and 'talk'.

I don't think that Es was mocking you. Not one bit. It was a story that appeared to be appropriate to the situation. How the hell can we communicate with each other? I've noticed, more and more, that when I'm talking with someone 1/5 my age that they are quick to take offense in the manner that the older person (me) is using. *sigh* When I was your age I used to get on about the 'generation-gap' also...unfortunately when dealing amongst ourselves we need to take time to understand that not everybody thinks or acts in a manner which we are used to. I hope that you'll hold out on this one 'cause we have a ways to go and we both are learning things! Thanks for being curious enough to ask and (hopefully) patient enough to communicate with these old bones (I'm not implying anything about you, Es (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)) Be well and Good Journey! -Bym


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esoterica
post Mar 25 2009, 03:19 PM
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nope, not mocking you at all - its just a story, loosely based on the conversation we have had so far

amazing, the bit about thoth in your vision - i'll not say more to hopefully spare me the inevitable 'what amazing bit in my vision?' pm

to not have a response to that insight is, well, just silly

like sitting on a bomb, lighting the fuse, and then wondering why you just exploded

either that or we are being toyed with


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davisxmonster
post Mar 25 2009, 07:16 PM
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lol

I already psycho anylized the vision and i could not make heads or tails of it.

When the time comes for me to understand it, i will.

-DxM

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davisxmonster
post Apr 1 2009, 05:02 PM
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all right


ive been thinking about the whole experience...

and a few things came up.

does Herme's famous saying apply to everything, even non (completely) magickal things?

And the silence probobly was supposed to tell me i'm not ready. I think.

I'm still not completely sure, as silence can have so many meanings.

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Vagrant Dreamer
post Apr 4 2009, 02:04 AM
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Hermes' famous saying "That which is above is like unto that which is below, and that which is below is like unto that which is above" (one version, my personal favorite because i like words) does apply to everything. Not just magical things - although it is worthwhile, in my own opinion of course - to consider everything as 'magical'. This point of view tends to make magic easier as far as I have observed. When everything is magical, magic is just a part of life, no more difficult than any other thing which requires the application of will - running, lifting, doing a difficult task, etc.

Hermes/Thoth/Tahuti is not just the god of Magic, but the god of Wisdom, of the written word - his answer is always the perfect answer for you. Being a Gemini, He understands that I don't consider him my patron deity, but if I had one it would be him.

There is an interesting story about Hermes and silence. It goes something to the effect of, "When asked about the nature of wisdom (magic), the master's response was to close his lips tightly." So, there is a correlation there with 'myth'.

Naturally the significance of the answer is specific to the recipient, at least when it comes to Hermes-Thoth - for me, that particular silence is a way of saying that the answer itself cannot be expressed in words, that it is experiential and must be sought out for oneself.

Another thing for consideration regarding your experience - often we expect fireworks when we receive an insight into the Path. However, more often that insight is not really the thing we think it is - sometimes it is simply the seed, planted within us at that moment, which later comes to fruition of its own accord (seemingly). We grasp something, or are given some bit of wisdom, and at the time it seems that nothing has changed. When we suddenly realize that we have applied that tidbit, that is when the 'change' occurs; the change we feel. The difficulty in transmitting knowledge/wisdom, is that the words themselves are only representations of the actual principle, whether we receive them from a deity, spirit, or another person.

This is a major difference between invocation and evocation, to tie into the original subject matter:


QUOTE
If invocation and evocation work with the same beings, why would it pay to evoke, invoke either one?


In my own experience, evocation is a way to call an entity into presence to have a conversation. If you are for any reason nervous about the direct effects of an entity on your being, evocation is a better choice. Of course, you will be dealing with primarily words - even if they are not spoken 'out loud' the point is that information is transferred on a conceptual basis.

In the case of invocation, one enters into the current of the entity in question, not just receiving information conceptually about that current, but experiencing its effects directly. Hermes is a very intellectual deity, and the intellect is his particular specialty. So to have an experience with him and essentially feel no different is not uncommon, although I'll warrant you thought very clearly and quickly for that time, and likely sometime afterward.

As an example. You evoke a spirit of fire, and ask him about the nature of fire. He will tell you analogies, stories, which demonstrate the subtle nature of fire. He might say, "I am anger, I am justice, I am life - I burn in the heart of passions, my fuel is all that is rigid, all that moves is my work." You may have to sit and ponder this, and look for the inner nature of that answer in yourself, and in life. The seed may be planted, and at least you didn't burn up in the process, but no matter what level the words were given to you on, you still need time to let them develop into comprehension, and then apply them to gain apprehension.

In the case of invocation, you might invoke a spirit of fire, or even the God of Fire, Agni (one name that i prefer) and instead of just hearing words or absorbing concepts (which can also happen), you may experience a sudden vision or daydream (or something far less substantial in terms of observable experience) in which the nature of Fire is not just explained, but experienced. You become that current, and recognize its actions not only within yourself, but in the world around you.

In my own practice, evocation is something I use to enlist aid in a particular task, or to have an intellectual discourse about a particular subject matter, and invocation is something i engage in to utilize the current of a particular spiritual or deific force. If I want to discuss the influence of fire energy on a particular matter, I call up a spirit of fire (I do not evoke deities). If I want to direct the Fire Energy current directly, I invoke Agni.

Invocation and Evocation can also be used together. One might invoke Agni and then evoke a salamander or other spirit of fire in his name/voice - essentially as the Deity himself speaking through you/as you (and/or visa versa, the difference becomes fuzzy).

Invocation is also a way to become accustomed to a deity's current, and the more you invoke a particular deity, the more familiar you become with that current. Often times if only one or two deities are in the scope of a magician's invocation practice, he may begin to take on sympathetic traits subconsciously, and tapping those currents becomes easier over time; the ability to recognize those currents in action also becomes easier on a subconscious level, and the magician sees the hand of his chosen pantheon at work in all aspects of life.

So, there are particular uses and benefits of both invocation and evocation, and it is important to always keep in mind that in either practice, we are dealing with entities who are used to a mode of existence far less rigid and material than our own. They recognize this, and deal with us as best they can (or in the cases of Gods like Loki and spirits like Coyote, they mock us for our own benefit) but we still have to assimilate their lessons over time. Of course, there comes a point when our very being becomes more malleable, and we are more aware of the changes that take place in our subconscious structures - when that time comes, we more easily grasp the information we receive from those levels of existence. This, however, is a process and takes patience, time, and attention.

As to Hermes' silence - perhaps silence is the key to understanding the lesson he is teaching you. It is something to consider. We hear many interesting and different things in silence...

peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Apr 4 2009, 02:04 AM


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esoterica
post Apr 4 2009, 09:20 AM
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universes, galaxies, stars, planets, dark matter, mangled by the greeks into molecules, atoms and atomic structure

if toth was right, then molecules should have energy sources similar to stars and the greeks really did mangle it

dodecahedron my a$$



the search feature sez: Evocation And Invocation, What's The Difference? - http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=5898

This post has been edited by esoterica: Apr 4 2009, 09:22 AM


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davisxmonster
post Apr 4 2009, 05:17 PM
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Thank you Vagrant,

insightful as usual.

I did get a bit of understanding from that silence, however i will not share it publicly, as many will be angered as it deals with the very purpose of magic in the world...

however, if you want to know what it was, ask and i'll send you a message. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)


@ esoterica

I know this is not the first topic like this, however it didn't answer my question, and people are more attracted to the new than the old.

so i decided to make a topic, since people would answer in it more.

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lord32
post Nov 30 2009, 08:28 AM
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Yeah cool answer


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